300hp 3116 enough power for 97 40' Sundancer

EKM

EKM

Active Member
Feb 4, 2007
674
Beach Haven, NJ
Boat Info
2000 420AC
Engines
Cummins 6CTA
I'm looking for opinions on if 300hp is enough for this 21,000# boat. From reading boatdiesel posts, the 3116 does not hold up well on larger boats but also say the 300hp should last longer than the 350hp. Survey/sea trial is this week. Moving up from 300 DA and looks like a great boat. Does anyone have this power configuration and what are your performance numbers? BTW, reading the post on the 3116 on this site seem to paint a much better picture of the Cat 3116s
Thanks...Ed
 
Caterpillar is very conservative on its engine ratings. I don't mean horsepower, but their use classifications and rating for use. In cruisers, Cat rates the engine for pleasure craft as high performance - E ratings which limits running at rated rpms and load to 8% of the time and between 250-1000 hours per year.

The owners in our area who have had problems with the 3116/3126 engine are owners than do not maintain the engines according to Cat recommendations, those who run the engines hot, those that ignore regular and important service needs, and those who insist on running the engines at above rated rpms and loads for longer than specified. The guys who take care of the engines with routine service and preventitive maintenance and who do not run them for extended periods at more than 2400 rpm, which is the recommended cruise setting, just don't have problems.

Diesels are not subject to the same overloading issues gas engines have, as long as they are run as the manufacturer specifies. The engines don't know or care how big the boat is...put the same engines in a small boat vs a big boat, run them within spec and the small boat just runs faster. I have a friend who runs a 56' charter boat with 3116's in it and he's at about 6800 hours as of last October, with no major issues. I've got 350hp 3116's in a 29,000 lb 450DA, we have about 850 hours on them and have just maintained them. They run like new , don't leak anything and use no oil at all.

Whether or not 300hp or 350 hp engines are a good choice boils down to how fast you want to go and how much fuel you want to burn........the 300 hp boat will be slower than the 350hp one and you will burn 19.4 ph withthe 300 hp boat vs. 22.6 gph with the 350 hp version.

As a part of your survey process, you should have a Caterpillar servicing dealer do an engine survey on the engines. This takes about a day and costs $800 -$1000. In about 1997, Cat had some problems with some TRW valves. By now the problem would have surfaced, but the cat dealer can run your serial numbers thru their system and see what if any warranty repairs have been done as well as judge the condition of your engines. Cat also has a proprietary blow by test that can be done to measure the crankcase pressures to see if your engines have any cylinder wear. You should also specify that oil analyses be dome on the engines, generator and transmissions.

Hope that helps............
 
EKM:
I saw your post on boatdiesel. I wanted to suggest that you come here for specfic advise and info....I'm glad you found us on your own.

Frank W. is "the man" when it comes to CATs in Sea Rays.
.....his advise is solid.......It's up to you to act on his advise....


Good luck with your purchase, and keep us posted....glad to have you aboard....
 
Thank you for the advice. I spoke to Cat this morning (person has worked for Cat 38 yrs) and was very helpful. Motors turned out to be 350hp versions...dyno tested at 357hp at Mossville Il plant after assembly Oct '96. Pulled records and only work done was turbo bracket replacement. No other repair or warranty work was done on engines per CAT records. As for engine survey, should I open heat exhangers, after coolers? Boroscope engine? This boat was purchased by current owner 2 years ago (240hrs total) and he passed away 1 year ago so boat has been sitting in the water. No maintainance records can be found. I will be on the boat on Wed with hull and mech surveys planned for Thur. The mechanic is not a Cat authorized mechanic but I did speak to him and his rebuilt many 3116's...he has done rebuilds (mostly top ends) but has rebuilt a few with new pistons (no rebore - guess in hull rebuilts). I can call him again to verify what tests he will be completing including blow-by (crank case pressure) test.

I need to get this boat ready for cruise to NJ waters (or hire transport)
Any other suggestions?
Thanks...Ed
Looking forward to cruising from LBI to Block this summer!!
 
EKM: First welcome to board. You will get great advice here and i recom you take it to heart. I just last Thu did a sea trial and engine survey on the exact same boat! It failed! Moistiure above waterline 9ft long and about 2-3ft wide. Oil samples just came back today with some problems in one transmission and some increased wear in one motor. The "GUYS" will post exactly what is needed before long. I seatrialed all systems, and i mean all systems and the engine was put thru its paces with rpm reading to the exact "T".
Crankcase blow-by was done and temperature reading at the rpm were noted. Oil samples of generator, both mains and trannys. Moisture meter was tested over the entire boat. Go to old post and write down what must be done as well. USE, I SAY USE ONLY authorized or recom engine surveyor from cat. 2800 rpm must be attained on both mains and it must reach its specked speed. Well iam thru and the real experts will chime in. Please listen to what they say they know what will need to be done. Good Luck, JC
 
Bore scoping on Caterpillars is an expensive proposition since the injectors have to be removed. That means reseating them and resetting the engine top ends. A bore scope will let the mechanic visually inspect he cylinder walls for damage and wear, but on a low time engine, the blow by test tells the same thing in a different way. It measures the pressure in the crankcase caused by combustion gasses escaping past the piston rings which is an indication of wear. A satisfactory blow by test indicates no wear or wear within acceptable limits. You need to do either the blow by test or bore scope the engines but I wouldn't think both are necessary, and a blow by test is an hour's labor while bore scoping would take a day per engine. Also, resetting the overheads also means you would be repairing/maintaining engines on a boat you may not buy.

I am unclear from your posts as to the total time on the engines. There is a required service on 3116's at 250 hours, and it is an important one. The valves and injector timing must be reset. If you cannot prove from evidence on the engines or service records that the overheads have been reset, then you need to have that done before running the engines. As the valves wear in, they become tighter which means they open sooner and further into the cylinder. Too far and a valve hits a piston which is almost always a "terminal" event on 3116/3126 engines.

As far as heat exchangers are concerned, it is not like removing an end plate and looking inside. You don't want to try to take them apart unless you have a full set of new o-rings on hand. Your surveyor will take infrared themperature measurements on the engines and he should be able to guide you on whether or not the heat exchangers need cleaning. During the engine survey/sea trial you should be running the boat for several minutes at WOT, so my guess, based on the age of the boat and the fact that it has been sitting a while is that you will have some overheating unless some attention has been given to the cooling systems. Cleaning the heat exchangers on a 400DA is not hard, but the cooling system will need to be partially disassembled to remove the heat exchangers. I don't think you can get them apart in place on a 400 due to the lack of space between the engines. Figure a day of a mechanics time to clean them. If you do opt to clean them, clean the transmission oil coolers while you are at it.

I know all this sounds daunting, but cleaning the heat exchangers and resetting the valves and injector timing are about the only 2 big "licks" ahead of you except for routine oil, oil filter, fuel filter maintenance.

My biggest concern on a neglected or lightly used boat is whether or not the hull and running gear is clean enough to properly sea trial it. These boats are notorious for poor performance if the bottom, shafts or props have any marine growth other than a little slime on them. You need to see 2800 rpms out of the engines at WOT and it will be hard to do that if the bottom is fouled.
 
Hello again....total engine time is 242 hrs and the bottom has been cleaned by a diver (boat is in Daytona Beach). The broker had it out with the mechanic for a test run and it hit 2800rpm running upwind with light seas and reported 30mph via a hand help GPS. I don't know how much fuel is in the boat so it could be lightly loaded. I've called the local Cat dealer to see if they can get their mechanic there or I could bring the boat to them as I need to pull it anyway (everyone from service to parts is out to lunch). You guys are really recommend a Cat mechanic vs qualified independant?
Thanks...Ed
 
Heat Exh Cleaner

Do you guys have any experience with heat exh cleaners such as Rydlyme products...pump thru cleaner?
Ed
 
EKM: When i called Pantropic Cat in SWFLA they sent me to Daniel Mattos. He did a great job! I have him coming over to FT LAUDER to do my next survey in about 10 days. Bob Agle did the hull survey, they worked really well together and they really did a good job. Iam trying to get Capt Bob again as well. I would recommend them if you can them to come that far. If you need #s just pm me. Listen to FrankW and the other guys & they will steer you in the right direction. JC
 
EKM: When i called Pantropic Cat in SWFLA they sent me to Daniel Mattos. He did a great job! I have him coming over to FT LAUDER to do my next survey in about 10 days. Bob Agle did the hull survey, they worked really well together and they really did a good job. Iam trying to get Capt Bob again as well. I would recommend them if you can them to come that far. If you need #s just pm me. Listen to FrankW and the other guys & they will steer you in the right direction. JC
 
A technician that works for Caterpillar has access to thier internal systems to research components used in your engines as wel as warranty and non-warrantry repairs reported to Cat. Other than that access and extensive experience dedicated to Caterpillar products that a dealer has, I don't feel strongly about who you use.

A heat exchanger is made up of a bundle of small brass or bronze tubes with a small space between each tube and the next. The bundle of tubes gets clogged up with marine growth or silicates from antifreeze and from broken zinc particles and residue from sacrificial annodes. It took a very strong muriatic acid solution and pushing a brass rod thru the tubes to get our heat exchangers clean. Therefore, unless you have been using some cleaning agent on a regular basis, I doubt you will get the desired result without removing and disassembling the heat exchangers. But, in the spirit of ful disclosure, I've never heard of the cleaning agent you mentioned and I've never seen anyone in our area clean a heat exchangers by any method other than taking it apart.
 
The Cat factory person mentioned that he has received lots of calls reporting excellent results with this product in lieu of disassembly....I know it sounds too easy. Their website is http://www.rydlyme.com/.

Did you do anything with upgrading your electronics? I never had a boat with radar and autopilot but the broker said is is ready for upgrades. This is the original list of what is in the boat.
Furuno 64-mile radar
Furuno RP-110 chart plotter
B&G Network Pilot
B&G Network Quad
B&G Network GPS plus
B&G Network VHF
What on this list is ready for upgrades?
Thanks...trying to locate a factory mechanic. Per Cat, these engines have no outstanding issues.
 
Ekm, welcome!

I own a 450 DA with the 3116 engines. I just turned 1000 hours, and they run like new, they reach 2800+ and I cruise them at 2400.

I use the boat, keep the bottom clean and maintain it myself. I do use cat guys for other scheduled maint.

I agree with Frank W. the people who dont maintain there boats are the ones that gripe and have trouble. As far as the other site goes on that topic/misery loves company!

Good luck, use the cat people next time.
 
EKM:

Frank is right. Only an authorized CAT franchise can run the history (warranty and non-warranty) for repairs and updates to the engines (provided, of course, that said work was done by CAT at the time). Also, as Frank mentioned previously, CAT has some pretty proprietary equipment for handling the blow-by test which is not available to independants. There are some great independant diesel mechanics out there that don't have access to some of the CAT features, but then again, they might pick up on other issues based on their previous experiences as well.

Any way about it, your due dilligence on this will pay off.

Good Luck and welcome to the forum.

Jeff
 
I'd have to disagree with your broker's general statement that the electronics are ready for upgrading. What you have are all commercial duty electronics that are as acurate as anything on the market today....if it is all working.

The B&G/ Furuno package was the best and most expensive electronics option availabe in 1997. What is missing is some of the newer non-mandatory features like color screens and overlays of the plot and radar simultaneously on the same screen. Your plotter toggles to the radar screen so you either see the chart or the radar but not both at the same time. A quick and cheap add on would be to replace the RP110 with a Furuno GP 1850 which has its own color screen, so you could then see the radar and the chart at the same time but on different screens.

The B&G autopilot is as good as it gets and gives you features you usually don't get on the newer mid priced ap's like speed proportional rudder corrections......the faster you go the smaller the rudder corrections so the ride is smoother and more confortable as well as more efficient.

The speed/depth/temp and VHF either work or not, but I have found the B&G VHF to be as good as ICOM and far more dependable than Raymarine.

The 64 mile Furuno is monochrome, but it is a CRT display and is free from that annoying LCD characteristic of needing to be directly in front of the screen to see it clearly. The image displayed on the Furuno is always clear and easy to see no matter what your position.

This is your call, but I think you will be hard pressed to improve on what you have. If you decide to replace the B&G/Furuno electronics, I'd like a chance to buy them from you.
 
Thanks Frank...I was hoping you would reply they are ok. I will find out Wed pm what works and what does not...hopefully the manuals are all there to walk me thru operation the electronics.

Thanks again for your feedback....Ed
 
ED: Your hull surv should walk you thru the electronics & SYSTEMS, at least mine did. You should have an engine surv & hull surv unless you only use the same guy. Capt Bob Angle spent about 2 hours walking me thru. Checking everything as we went. When i had ? we stopped went thru it again, until i was comfortable. This was ontop of about 7hrs going around the hull, etc... JC
 
Well you have all the good guys down south...my guy said he would turn the on to see if they powered up...no instructional training. I did find a 28 year Cat guy who left Cat 5 years ago but still has the contacts. Eng survey is $750 plus oil analysis. $600 + parts for 250 hr adjustment valve clearance and injection timing. He said they you need around 3K in special tools to perform this service. Also thought after coolers would be ok based on limited hours but heat exhangers, pump impeller, belts etc will need work prior to use.
Ed
 
ED: Price for service sounds fine. I would find someone to walk me thru the electronics, if for no other reason than finding out if everything works. In the long run it would be of great help. JC3
 
The broker also has a 40 EC for personnal use so hopefully he will have some experience with the electronics. I will ask him tomorrow what his experience base is.
Thanks again for everyone's guidance...I hope this boat is ok and not just shooting a hole in my wallet.
Ed
 
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