Broken mooring....Do I have to pay?

northern said:

If you had paid to use it and it failed you would expect to be compensated for your boat damage. If it did not have a boat rating size on it, it could have been for a dingy. You tied to an unknown bouy and it failed. I would start with finding out what you are replacing. If it is one that is designed for your size of boat I would say you are paying for more than you brock. Pay for what you brock not what the owner wants.

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Depending on what is required to fix the mooring $750 is not at all unlikely.

I had a mooring put in last summer and the barge time alone was $250 / hr.

That was someone else property, not only does he have to fix it but he's lost the use of it and may have to pay for another place to keep his boat.

I agree with the 'personal responsibility' position.

Jeff

sfergson727 said:

If I broke it, I expect to pay for it. Same thing if I broke something at my marina here in Michigan City. Public versus private does not matter. If I was using it, and it broke, I'm not going to blame someone else.

When I was a child, my best friend let me play with his toy, and I broke it. I took my paper route money and bought him a new one. Yes, my answer would be the same.

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Same thing happened to me when I was younger, and a few years later I found out that i did not break his toy so I fooled around with his sister:thumbsup:

searaycruisn said:

I did not break it.....it failed.

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The chain broke while your boat was on it without being authorized to be there; and now someone else is responsible for fixing a problem that you created.

What if it was your mooring ball, what would your position be?

Not sure what the regulations are where you boat but in NH the only boat that is authorized to hang on an inland ball is the boat who's registration is tied to the registration on the mooring ball.

searaycruisn said:

It was not possible to tell the condition of the chain under the ball. The shackle on the bottom of the ball failed.

Let's see what others think...

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the next time you STEAL a mooring for the night, make sure you STEEL a better one

Wow.....tough crowd!

I was not stealing....I was picking up what I believed was a public mooring...which was not marked as private.

Why would you not expect the owner to mark his mooring as private? Most owners do....in which case I would either not use it....or be stealing!

Maybe the question I should ask is, do most people assume that unmarked moorkings at resort harbors such as Block Island are public moorings...or do you normally believe them to be private unless they are marked as public?

And what conclusions would you reach about an unmarked mooring?

Or maybe it does not matter, and you believe the boater is responsible for a public as well as a private mooring?

Posting this for Hampton, he texted me from the cockpit of his F15:

"Scott,

I agree that he should pay. I do not necessarily agree that simply paying that guy’s price is the answer. If it were, I would go out and buy 50 balls and cheap chain right now, put out a mine field, and monitor the area for users. Upon each failure, I’d charge them for a high tech, heavy duty replacement. In the end, I’ve have a fantastic mooring area with huge income potential. He needs to negotiate. I would also research to ensure the owner was complying with local/state regs regarding the placement of moorings. As screwed up as this country’s legal system is, it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that the owner was responsible for scratches to the boat’s hull because the mooring was not appropriately labeled with warnings about ownership and capability limitations.

Would that make me feel good? No, but it would give me realistic negotiating strength. If the guy was an ass, I would use it against him.

$.02"

searaycruisn said:

... I was not stealing....I was picking up what I believed was a public mooring...which was not marked as private. ...

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After you were moored did you call the Harbor Master and tell him where you were so that you could make arrangements to pay for your use of the ball?

Let it go dude, you have some responsibility here.

Just saying.

Interesting reading for someone who knows absolutely nothing about mooring balls. That being said, go easy on the "ass clown" comments as I only ask in order to learn.

Can these things not be repaired? Sounds like a shackle broke. So you have to replace the whole thing at a cost of $750? I assume there are expenses associated with installing these things. But a new one instead of a repair & replace?

You certainly owe the owner of that mooring buoy something. I agree with some of the others, you should to talk with owner and talk to him about paying the $750 or part of it You do owe him and you shouldn't have used it in the first place.

The "right" thing hasn't been done here.

Methinks you'll end up paying more in legal fees than you will to replace it. I wouldn't be surprised if a civil discussion with the owner would get you off with a lower settlement.

I would at least ask my insurance company about it being covered under comprehensive.

I think you are responsible to repair what broke during your use. I have no idea what a fair price is, and I don't know the law regarding requirements to label private moorings. But it is someone else's property, you used it without permission and it broke. So, I think the morally correct thing to do is see to it that it is repaired/replaced.

searaycruisn said:

I was at Old Harbor (Block Island, RI) last Thursday night when the winds began to pick up. I arrived at about 8:30 the previous evening, and since I was alone on the boat with my sister (a non boater) I decided the safest thing to do was to pick up a mooring. The winds started howling at around 4:00PM on Thursday. The boat was swinging pretty hard off the mooring, and I decided to put out my anchor (bow and stern anchor). At 2:30AM, my sister woke me up because she feld the boat swing. Turns out that the mooring ball pulled off the chain.

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Were you supposed to check in with the harbormaster? As a transient what was required of you to take a mooring? Harbors often charge to use a mooring, I would think you would check in to find out where they wanted you. For all you knew the mooring you took was awaiting a transient that radioed from an hour out. According to your post from last summer you arrived 8:30 pm Wednesday and the mooring ball came loose about 2:00am Friday, but you say you didn't contact the harbormaster. Sounds like you had alot of time to do that.

I arrived at 8:30PM...and the ball broke at 2:00AM. Keep in mind that the "harbormaster" is the 18 year old kid running the pumpout boat, was not on duty at 8:30PM.....not your typical situation.

So my point is that I was not trying to illegally use a private mooring, but I have already made that clear several times, and that does not seem to matter here. I was fully expecting to pay for the mooring in the morning. Many places, the harbormaster collects the fee in the morning from all transients who arrive late.

That being said, I understand that the conclusion here is that I do owe something. I will probably just notify my insurance company and have them contact the owner. If the insurance company deems this to be a covered loss...they can negotiate, or pay the owner. If it is not a covered loss, I will call the owner and agree to pay a reasonable amount of money to replace the failed shackle.

I guess I shouldn't be too surprised to see the responses of telling the owner to "kiss my..." This reminds me of the discussion that happened on this board a few years ago with regards to private docks. In Virginia, which is probably the same in most other states, you have to get a permit to put in a private dock or mooring ball. Basically, the state owns the land under the water and if you want to use it, you have to get permission. This gives certain people the idea that because the dock or mooring ball is on state land, anyone can use it. They can't... The structure and/or ball is private property.

That being said, look at this from the owners point of view. If the owner got a permit and put in a mooring ball for his 20 foot fishing boat and a big 380 Sundancer comes along and breaks it "because a storm came up", why is that the mooring ball's owner's problem? What did the owner do wrong? If someone came up and tied up to my dock without my permission and a storm came up and his boat damaged my dock, I would fully expect him to pay for the damage to my dock. Period. I didn't do anything wrong. If your boat wasn't on my dock or your boat wasn't on the mooring ball, it would not have been damaged. You are responsible.

I saw in the previous thread you thought that private mooring balls should regulated and certified... That's ridiculous. If an owner gets a permit from the state, why in the world should joe-blow be allowed to just show up and use it and then complain it didn't work for his boat?

In my view, you broke it. You should not have waited this long for them to find you and send you a certified letter. The issue should have been resolved before you left harbor.

searaycruisn said:

I arrived at 8:30PM...and the ball broke at 2:00AM. Keep in mind that the "harbormaster" is the 18 year old kid running the pumpout boat, was not on duty at 8:30PM.....not your typical situation.

So my point is that I was not trying to illegally use a private mooring, but I have already made that clear several times, and that does not seem to matter here. I was fully expecting to pay for the mooring in the morning. Many places, the harbormaster collects the fee in the morning from all transients who arrive late.

That being said, I understand that the conclusion here is that I do owe something. I will probably just notify my insurance company and have them contact the owner. If the insurance company deems this to be a covered loss...they can negotiate, or pay the owner. If it is not a covered loss, I will call the owner and agree to pay a reasonable amount of money to replace the failed shackle.

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I think you doing the right thing with this. Just getting into boating myself, I can see there is allot of educate and general practice that has been developed over a many many years. Most generally the boater in grief is understanding when circumstances are explained. Sounds to me from your story you came in from a storm. In the AM contacted the Harbor Master as you should. Doesn’t sound like he made a big deal of it then. But he contacted the owner as he should and here you are. Hope it all straightens out quickly for you. ...Ron

BonBini said:

I think you doing the right thing with this. Just getting into boating myself, I can see there is allot of educate and general practice that has been developed over a many many years. Most generally the boater in grief is understanding when circumstances are explained. Sounds to me from your story you came in from a storm. In the AM contacted the Harbor Master as you should. Doesn’t sound like he made a big deal of it then. But he contacted the owner as he should and here you are. Hope it all straightens out quickly for you. ...Ron

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I've opened my dock up to boaters due to weather issues. However, breaking something and not be willing to resolve it because "it should have been designed to work with my boat" or "the storm did it" seems wrong. But that's just me.

I don't know... tell the owner to "kiss your butt" like someone else suggested. Seems like an honorable approach.

Just so there’s no confusion with my above post: I think searaycruisn is doing the right thing by taking care of the boater in grief’s property even if his insurance co wont. ...Ron

Wow.

Lots of interesting thoughts in this thread.

The best comment regarding the text message from the F15.
I hope he had the autopilot engaged. . . .can I text while I have cruise control on my car engaged?

I also agree with Hampton's comments.


My own views are as follows;

1st: I don't think the Original Poster did anything overly wrong. It's not like he *didn't report* the incident. And if there was means to contact the harbor master at 8:30pm. . I have every reason to believe from the posts in this thread that he would have done so. I believe it is the Harbor Master's responsibility to manage his mooring field. If the owner can't be bothered to have 24 hour coverage. . then if he can't collect because someone arrives after hours and leaves before hours is the owners problem. If I arrived at 8:30pm, I wouldn't necessarily expect to find the harbor master either. I would, however, expect a visit at 8:30am to settle accounts.

2nd: I agree with Gary and Others: If a mooring ball (or a dock) is on private property (or on the waterfront in front of private property), then it is not open for public use and you should not use it.

3rd: But what happens if the private mooring is in a public mooring area? I think the common sense rules here change. If I plunked down a private mooring in the middle of Annapolis, along side 100 public moorings . . . what do you think is going to happen? In this case, I would clearly expect the private and public moorings to be marked differently. If they are not. . shame on the owner.

I mean. . think about it. Sure, if you leave your keys in a car in a parking lot, you don't expect anyone to borrow the car. But if you park your car with the keys in it . . in an AVIS rental lot. . .don't be surprised if someone drives off with it.

4th: Bottom line: You have some responsibility for busting balls. The owner of the busted ball, however, has some responsibility for (a) marking his property when mis-use is likely and (b) contacting you in a timely manner. Six months? That is a bit long.

I suspect that you may be buying a Rolls to replace a Yaris. I would find out an approximate value for a ball replacement, then make a reasonable counter offer to the ball owner.