Here’s a good thread to start:

http://clubsearay.com/index.php?thr...dancer-express-cruiser-and-400-sundancer-express-cruiser-official-thread.53469/

 

There are 100s if not 1000s of threads here about buying boats, pros/cons of Cats, Cummins, gas, diesel, etc. Do a search and read until your heart is content. JVM225 has posted one thread above.

I will say one thing that I have learned in response to your post....there is no right answer...it depends. It depends on how you will use the boat. It will depend on how and what maintenance has been performed on any single boat. It depends on a lot of things. Take your time, understand your choices, and enjoy the process. As you gain knowledge and can ask more specific questions, you will get some answers.

Bennett

 

Matt, The 450DA or 410DA are awesome boats. A little prejudice because I owned one for 9 years. The Cats ? has been discussed on this site numerous times. Do a search and you should find a lot of information. FrankW and some other owners know these models inside out. I am sure they will be along. Good luck on your search. GOD bless. JC

 

1998 450 with 3116s, 975 hrs. Had it for 4 years now and could not be more satisfied. I do all my own maintenance, easy to work on and a lot of room. ours was fresh water always, Main thing is finding one that has been cared for. We did do some maintenance on things the previous owner let go, Replaced all the waste lines, Rebuilt vac pumps and heads. You can do a lot of fixing for the price difference in our year boat and a newer model. No computer controlled engines is a big plus in my opinion. Sound hull in good shape, Cats serviced regularly and good records, You won,t be disappointed.

 

Start shopping now! Finding a good, clean used boat is not easy. One mans "meticulous" is quite often another mans "rode hard, put away wet".

My best advice - be willing to walk away. Multiple times. I don't know your budget but if you're looking for something similar in age/value to your Donzi I think you'll find there are more "projects" out there than there are true, turn-key cruisers. There's a reason you'll see $50k-100k differences in list prices on boattrader for what appear to be the same make/model/year of boat....

Good luck and have fun!

 

Hi Matt!!

Took this journey last year. JVM posted the full 410 thread, I read it all twice while I was purchasing my boat. I have a 2000 410 and there were/are several maint. items I did and have to do on the engines. For the CATs find a local dealer and have them do a mechanical survey on the engines. Runs $1500 to $2000 depending on travel and it will give you at least that much maint. information to negotiate with or will confirm the excellent condition the engines are in. I set up the survey first, then the engines. That way if the survey uncovered anything I could call off the CAT dealer.

The 410 and 450 are two very different boats in both layout and ER. I say go on both and make a list of what you like on both. I would also throw in the 460 DA as well if your budget supports it. The 460 came in hard and soft top and with/with out hydraulic swim platform so there is a very wide range on pricing depending on those options.

Good luck!!! Feel free to start a private conversation if you like.

FrankW will be the most helpful to you as you navigate the purchase, his eagerness to help, knowledge, and sincere interest is unparalleled.

Take Care!!

 

Runs $1500 to $2000 depending on travel and it will give you at least that much maint. information to negotiate with or will confirm the excellent condition the engines are in. I set up the survey first, then the engines. That way if the survey uncovered anything I could call off the CAT dealer.

That seems high for the survey pricing. I paid $850 for the engine survey on my 400 DB with CAT 3116's including the blow by test.

My boat was originally on land so the surveyor checked out things on the hull etc then both he and the CAT guy were at the Sea Trial.

 

We bought our '98 450 11 years ago. We have the CAT 3126's, in 2002 the blocks were replaced under CAT's warranty recall. I researched for over a year and moved from the 400 to 450. We still love our boat today as much as the day we bought it.

 

The 450's reliability will very much depend on the year it was manufactured and whether or not it has the newer/updated pod design. The older pod boats (2008-2010) had the original pods and there are design flaws that can lead to a very specific corrosion of the prop shafts (ask me how I know!). If you get one of the newer pod drive boats and it's been well-maintained you're probably fine. The Zeus drives are amazing when they're working.

 

Thanks guys for all the help, still trying to get mine moved so I can start getting serious. We've been on a 450 in Tampa and loved the layout. Was on a 500 in Port Clinton and didn't care for it as much. I'm not scared of a little maintence or do it your self project, I'm just more concerned with "stay away from" things. Budget wise we are looking around 75k-125k, years 95 and above, preferably closer 2000.

Can anyone give me an idea on what kind of seas the 410 or 450 are comfortable in. Erie can get kind of hairy and I hate to be denied a weekend at Put in Bay.

Matt

 

These boats can stand more seas than you can. 4-6ft seas aren't a problem for us, but honestly, what is tolerable is really dependent upon the speed you run and thevdirection of travel relative to the seas.

In your first post, you raised the question of the stories youn have heard about Cat engines……..and Caterpillar was the predominant power choice for the 400/410DA's and 450DA's. Some 3116 & 3126TA Caterpillars were affected by some bad valves delivered by a vendor. Cat repaired or replaced all affected engines and the valve failures all occurred at roughly 150 hours or less. If you are looking at engines with normal run times of about 75-100 hours per year, then the engines are wall past the point that the soft valves would have failed. You can, therefore, pretty much forget that concern.

The next Caterpillar "story" has to do with FAPS or soft blocks. This only occurred on 3126 engines. Caterpillar stopped warrantying the soft blocks in about 2004 so there is a change that that problem could still occur on a boat you are considering. Always have an engine survey done by Caterpillar on any Cat powered boat and if it has 3126TA's (385 hp or 420hp) request that the surveyor do a blow by test with is a measurement of the extent to which crankcase gasses are getting by the piston rings. THe blow by test is inexpensive and easily done by a surveyor in a few minutes.

The 350hp Cat 3126 engine is a revised design and is free from all of the above problems. (you will only see the 350hp 3126 in 410DA's from roughly 2002 up.

The 3208 is an older engine design but it is a bullet proof engine. THere were very few used after 1995 and the engine bed on the 400/410 is too narrow for the v-8 3208, so if you run across 3208's they will only be in the 450DA or larger boats.

You will find Caterpillar engines to be very easy to maintain, clean burning, smoke free and extremely efficient……but the 3208 can be a tad smokey since they are an earlier design and produced before the EPA stuck its nose in the marine business. From my experience, Cat engines are lower cost engines to operate and maintain than Cummins B or C series, but Cummins builds good engines.

Hope that helps…...

 

fwebster, that was a huge help thank you!!!

I've started to read the thread suggested and there is a lot of good info there, just lots of it. Got another good question that will probably get me shunned for asking haha, but coming from the go fast crowd and that style of boating I need the opinion. Has anyone ever thought about owning a Formula 41PC over a 410DA/EC. I know I'll lose and extra head and probably over all room but just curious if anyone had ever considered going that route before the DAs

Matt

 

fwebster, that was a huge help thank you!!!

I've started to read the thread suggested and there is a lot of good info there, just lots of it. Got another good question that will probably get me shunned for asking haha, but coming from the go fast crowd and that style of boating I need the opinion. Has anyone ever thought about owning a Formula 41PC over a 410DA/EC. I know I'll lose and extra head and probably over all room but just curious if anyone had ever considered going that route before the DAs

Matt

I did.
While shopping for my 410 I considered a Formula because they are such nice boats.
What I found was that in addition to less space and narrower beam, there are a lot less of them to choose from simply because they didn’t sell nearly as many of them as Sea Ray did. They’re interiors in the early 2000’s boats are very dated now, and you’ll likely pay more for one than a comparable year and size Sea Ray simply because they are rarer.
If I were looking at new boats, I think Formula might win out over Sea Ray. They are that nice, and they give you a ton of choices for interiors and exterior colors so you can really personalize the boat. Disclaimer though: I’m not a fan of the current Sea Ray styling. It just doesn’t work for how we use our boat.
But when shopping for one of the vintage and size you’re looking for you are probably better off looking at Sea Rays. Their interiors are nicer, you’ll get more room, and you’ll find a lot more to choose from.
Re: your question about 410’s in snotty water.
I try to avoid going in the ocean when I know it’s going to be nasty because it isn’t fun on any boat.
I took delivery of my boat last year and my first trip was a 6 1/2 hour run from eastern Connecticut, through a calm Long Island Sound, through Hell Gate, against the notoriously strong current heading south on the East River, through a choppy NY Harbor, then the weather turned really nasty as I turned East in the ocean in to 5-6 footers of short duration coming straight at the bow with very strong winds.
While it wasn’t fun, the boat handled it extremely well.
My crew consisted of my brother and my then 84 year old Uncle. We had the option of cutting 12 miles off the ocean portion of the trip by going in the first inlet we came upon, but we would have had to run 5 mph zones inside, adding more time on to the trip.
I left it up to my crew and they both agreed we should stay outside. That’s how well the boat did.
RE: The 2002 Cat 3126’s in my boat. It’s hard to add anything beyond what Frank did. He was a tremendous source of info and advice about the motors and boat when I was going through the buying process. Overall I love them. They are a great match for the 410. The one and only complaint I have about them is the engine zincs. There are eleven in each motor. All are very easy to get to. The problem is the 5 in each after cooler. While easy to get to, the pencil zincs like to stay in the hole when you thread the stainless cap out. Franks advice on this is solid though. Change the engine zincs more often, let the O rings on the aftercooler caps do their job and don’t gorilla tighten them down, and you’ll have a much easier time of it. I busted my knuckles the first time I did them last year, but it went smoothly in late summer/early fall. I’m about to tackle them again in the coming weeks and I’m keeping my fingers crossed, but optimistic.

 

Formula makes a great boat. There is one on our dock and I do love the painted hull. My issue is the engine room. It’s cortually impossible to do work in there. They also have less beam which makes them faster but in a cruiser I prefer the space to the speed.

Either way both are good boats.

 

I am a very happy with our new to us 410 Sundancer w/3126's CAT's Great boat, and we have enjoyed the space, especially the beam on this boat.

I started out looking at a 340-380 Sundancer w/8.1 gas, but concluded that the cost of ownership would't be too much more for a diesel powered 410. With the extra beam and a second head, I think it was a good choice. Read several threads of guys upgrading soon after purchase for that extra room.

I paid $1600 for a CAT dealership mechanical survey in the Tampa Area. Expensive...yes. Worth it for my piece of mind, definitely. I was most concerned with the engines as I figured just about everything else can be fixed on these boats with the right amount of time and effort or money, depending on which you have more of.

As far as sea keeping, the 410 will knock 2'-3' down and feel like a glassy day in a smaller boat. The picture on my profile is running 20kts into a quartering head sea, and it was a wonderful ride, with just an occasional splash through the windsheild on a larger wave. Having boated a lot on Lake Erie in my misspent youth, I think you will find this is a great boat for what Lake Erie can dish out, with the caviat that there are certain days conditions that I wouldnt even venture out in a iron ore ship.

Did they ever re-open the winery on Middle Bass Island? Can't recall the name of that place..surprise surprise.

 

Did they ever re-open the winery on Middle Bass Island? Can't recall the name of that place..surprise surprise.

Thanks for the feedback. I'd like to stay with the 410 for storage reasons, dock fees and it's all we really need. The 450 will be harder to find dockage and more expensive at the bay not to mention could be harder to get in on busy weekends.

As for the winery, the stat dropped a few million into it over the last few years restoring it. There trying to find a vendor to go into it but they don't want it to be a bar from what I understand. There looking more for a restaurant or something of that nature.

 

After a long season of boating coming to a end for us up here in Ohio, my Donzi is finally under a contract and just awaiting passing survey and mechanical inspection on the engines. Hopefully this winter will be spent shopping for 450DAs. We looked at one yesterday with Cummins 420hp and the broker says it cruises at 24mph and tops out at 32. That seemed impressive for such a big boat, am curious what the 3116s and 3126s cruise at.

 

We love our 450 with 3126's. Not quite as long as Frank W. but we are on 12th year with it... We generally run 22-24 kts @ 2200-2400 rpm. Our sweet spot (22-24) is around .80 nautical mile to the gallon.

 

Just found this thread.
http://clubsearay.com/index.php?threads/45-da-performance-question.1018/#post-7868

 

I’ll chime in. We bought our ‘97 400 with CAT 3116s a few years ago. As with any boat of this age, we had to put some dollars into deferred maintenance items and cosmetic updates. But overall, it’s been a GREAT boat for Lake Erie. The caveat I’ll throw out is this; don’t expect to find easy dockage on any of the islands in a boat over 40’. We had to circle around the marina for an hour only to return home on numerous occasions this summer. From June-Aug, you’ll NEED reservations a few days in advance at just about every marina (all of PIB, Dockside at Kelleys, and MBI State Park). We actually didn’t use the boat much this summer because we never made reservations (hard to plan much in advance with a 6mo old) and every time we tried to be spontaneous we got turned away.

 

We know all to well the complications of getting dockage around PIB. Luckily we have a good relationship with the Dockmasters on the public docks and we are members at the Crews Nest too. I always make sure I have a something lined up before I trailer 2.5 hours.

What marina are you at?

 

Good luck on your search for a well cared for 450. I have owned a 1997 450 with the 3126 engines for 6 years and love the boat for cruising the Great Lakes. Cruising speed for us at 2400rpm is 28.5 mph on the gps burning a total of 26.6 gallons per hour (13.3 gah per engine) plus approx. 1gph for the generator. The torque of the diesels coupled with the engine spacing provides superb handling in close quarters. I do not regret moving from a sea ray 400 express cruiser to the 450DA. Great to cruise or hangout on the water.

 

I bought my 400DB with Cat3116 this year. I run similar to what Frank W says in his thread about a 450DA. At 2400 RPM with full tanks I am between 20 -21 knots. With 1/2 tanks I am closer to 22.5 knots.

Heavy boat but the Cats handle it well.

 

I love the 450 DA. Great boat, very manouverable, lots of room for friends and family.

I did not like have the 3126 engines rebuilt. And yes, I had a survey done before the purchase not that it did any good in the long run.

 

I have no doubt we will love a 410 or 450 DA. The only issue I’m having is figuring out what engine package to look for. I’m getting a lot of good info from Frank and for the most part I don’t think there’s a bad one as long as it checks out by a certified Cat Mech or Cummins Mech.

Can’t wait to just drive to the lake and have the boat there waiting instead of trailering and dealing with all the launch issues.

 

Having just bought a new to me boat I do have one peice of advice. Do not buy a boat based on the pictures and what the owner tells you over the phone. Based on that I had the boat surveyed and it turned out to be a POS. I had failed survey I walk away in the contract but it still cost me $850.00 for that hard lesson. Go look at the boat yourself, look the owner in the eye and still get it surveyed. BTW the boat I just bought is awesome so they are out there.

 

I did it in 4 stages... 1) my sea trial pass/fail 2) in water survey pass/fail 3) mechanical survey pass/fail 4) on the hard survey pass/fail I could cut my losses at any point and try to limit my financial exposure.

 

I flew down to Miami to look at two 450 DA's with my son. We went to see a boat in Boca and a second vessel in South Beach which was added to our trip at the last minute. Looked at the South Beach boat first and it had good bones but it was definitely on the downhill slide of neglect. Drove to Boca and looked at the second boat; I was still looking the exterior over from the shore when my son (then 15) jumped on board. And in less than 30 seconds he came back up and said "Nope".

I thought he was being rash and went aboard myself. Definitely a butcher job, and "Nope" was the right answer. So much for the photos in the advertisement.

Bought the boat in South Beach with the good bones. Over the last few years its been a labor of love bringing her back to standards. Mostly labor with some love thrown in.

 

Cannot stress the need to see the boat in person. I threw away good money after bad getting a survey done on a boat based on the pictures and all the lies the owner told me over the phone. Competly my fault and I own it. The boat we just bought had the original owner there, had him show me everything, proved to me it worked. Then survey then the check was in the mail. Now the waiting begins to move the boat to it’s new home.

 

Unless you place no value to your time, I would not consider your $850 a waste of money. It could have easily saved you tens of thousands. Maybe the seller was dishonest or possibly just didn't know. I know I have looked some sellers in the eye before and I couldn't tell if they were an amazing liar or just thought they were smarter than they were. Regardless, sounds like it did you right in the end.

 

We took a couple of 4-day weekend road trips. First one we left Athens, GA and met Frank in Chattanooga to look at a boat. Next day, on to Osage Beach, MO. Took our time and saw a lot of other stuff as well. Two weeks later, left here and saw one in Jacksonville, FL, one in Ft. Lauderdale, and a third one in Miami. Got turned down on an offer on one. Was getting ready to make an offer on another when a freshly listed one showed up in Pensacola Beach. Called, signed a contract next day contingent on our inspection as well as survey/sea trial, etc. This one worked out and we love it!

We had a good time seeing the country on the road trips and kind of made mini vacations out of them.

Bennett

 

That’s what we hope to do is make some mini vacations out looking. My boat should be sold by this weekend, if not then I got the cart way in front of the horse. I’m pretty confident it’s going to sell, I met the guy at the launch one day when we were pulling out. His wife and him loved it so much they were taking pictures of it with them in it haha.

I really can’t wait to get the fam on a more comfortable boat and still have room for another couple. Hotels at PIB are so expensive which discourages friends and family from coming up.

What was Franks fee for meeting you in TN?