Rick,

Got your PM....thanks for the compliment. The problem you have is most likely the control board. I'm a little surprised your mechanic friend didn't try to replace it. The way the board works is that it provides startup power for a few seconds to the ignition and fuel systems. Once the engine starts the control board begins "sensing" overspeed conditions (which will not shut the engine off), safetys (which will shut the engine off) and voltage regulation. Since safetys and voltage regulation will tell the control board to shut down....the problem lies in those systems. By disconnecting the safety wire you have eliminated that safetys as an issue. That leaves us with voltage regulation and the control board.

I have seen more control boards and fuel pumps fail on those generators than anything else. So, I tend to start look at those components first before I get into the generator windings, capacitors.

By the way, my Quicksilver only had 125 hours on it when I replaced it with a 7.5KW Westerbeke. It saved me a 100 pounds of weight (smaller footprint as well) and was far more efficient than the Quicksilver (far less CO2 emissions). My Quicksilver had low compression in all cylinders which I believe was a result of very low use by the original owner. That meant it really struggled to keep a load. I have seen some that have 1000 hours on them and run great. Rebuilding them is not a good idea since the generator portion will also fail eventually.

There are several sources for control boards. Let me know if you need one.

-John

 

John
Thanks for the info and recommendation. I just ordered the board from ASAP. Dennis up there is really great. With luck, I will have it tomorrow, installed by 5:30 and good to go! I’ll let you know how I make out.

 

Weekend update. After TS Hanna blew through here on Sat, I got to install the control board. Unfortunately, I’m getting pretty much the same results with just a few minor differences. With the old board, the unit ran for 3-5 sec. With the new board it runs for 1-3 secs and then turns off. One interesting observation is with the old board, when I tried starting it with a load on it (shore power turned off in the cabin and generator switch on) it would run for about 10 secs before turning off. With the new board, starting it with a load on it, it will run continuously. In both tests, the only thing running was the ice maker. After letting it run a few minutes and stabilizing, I checked the voltage at the Voltage Regulator Voltage Sensing terminals (11 & 22). I also tested it at the Voltage Output terminal strip (11 & 22). With the load, I was only getting 35-40 V. I turned the load off by the generator switch in the cabin panel and it continued to run. I retested the voltages above under no load and it was approx 45-50 V. I tried adjusting the voltage regulator’s potentiometer (went full counterclockwise to full clockwise). No change.
I rechecked the Stator Power Windings, Rotor Resistance and the wires and all check okay. I suspect it is the voltage regulator but not sure. Any other thoughts or tests I can do?

 

Sounds like the same problem I had earlier in the season.
Turned out to be the fuel pump.
See Link
Dan

http://clubsearay.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8749&highlight=quicksilver+generator

End of Thread!

John and Everyone else who responded.
Finally got around to changing out the fuel pump today.
Because of high fuel prices, we have been limited to short trips to the beach.
But with onslaught of much warmer air and water temps I decided it was time.

Removed AC Delco EP-89 pump and went to Auto Zone
Got a replacement, but had to add some brass fittings to go from 1/8" to 3/8" fittings.

Took a few minutes of running the starter to fill bowl and get gas to carbs, but.....
it is now up and running.

Thanks for all the help


Total cost of replacement:

Auto Zone Fuel Pump..... $60.55
Menards Brass Fittings....$8.78

Admiral being able to have blender and
HDTV to watch her beloved Cubs on the hook at the beach..........PRICELESS!!!!!

Dan

 

Rick,

I just got back from Atlanta (delays, delays delays)......let me reread your post in the morning and I will get back to you.

-John

 

Rick,

I'm sorry that control panel didn't get it done. On the positive side, you know that the control board and the engine are working properly since you can keep it running.

The low voltage is symptomatic of several things. The normal replacement parts that fail are the output capacitor and the voltage regulator. Of the two the capacitor is inexpensive and easy to replace. The voltage regulator is more expensive. I usually don't advise owners to change the capacitor if they are uncomfortable around high voltage and the capacitor can shock you if not handled properly.

I know this is frustrating. But knowing that the engine starts and runs properly, really is a major step forward. The only thing now is to get generated power back up to where it should be. If you are comfortable with high voltage, I would replace the capacitor next.

-John

 

John
I’m comfortable with the high voltage; I’m just not sure where the capacitor is located. I studied the wiring diagram in the service manual and it doesn’t show a capacitor. I also searched the ASAP site and they don’t list one. I also checked my cross reference guide for the QS to Generac parts and they don’t show it so I’m going to need a little guidance here.

 

Rick,

Please send me your email address. I have a detailed wiring diagram for your generator I want to send you. It may be the same one you have.....I just want to be sure. In any case, your model does not have a capacitor (like many generators do) to "excite" the alternator (not to be confused with the DC alternator) current. Frankly this why it is difficult to solve these riddles without getting my hands on the damn things.

In the diagram I will send you, two sensing wires go from the alternator to the circuit board. These wires are "sensed" on hertz frequency. Those same wires (11 & 22) connect from the circuit board back to the voltage regulator. The voltage regulator uses the frequency it senses to control the functions of the alternator.

When your unit starts, temporary voltage is applied by wire number 4 to the voltage regulator (via the choke module) to jump start the field + wire to the alternator. This may be the reason that the unit shuts down so quickly since the control board does not "sense" the frequency from wires 11 and 22 after the jump start by wire number 4.

There are only two things that can cause that to occur: 1) an internal failure of the alternator (which was your mechanic's suspicion) 2) the voltage regulator (which was your suspicion). The first one frankly is a deal killer. Nobody rebuilds those things.

I am encouraged that it may be the voltage regulator based on your minor load test. Usually when the alternator itself is fried, no voltage is generated regardless of the load.

The last thing to try is your original suspicion....replace the voltage regulator. I sincerely hope that works because the alternative is really expensive.

BTW when you were measuring the voltage in the minor load test.....did you measure the hertz frequency?

-John

 

John
Just sent you my email address.

When checking the voltage while the unit was running with and w/o a load, I was following the test procedures in section “1.4.9 Voltage Regulator Sensing” of the manual. I took the readings at the Voltage Regulator Sensing Terminal (11 & 22) per section “N” and at the AC Power Output Connection terminal strip per section “O”. Since the manual didn’t mention frequency in this section, only voltage, I assumed the voltage regulator was looking at volts not hertz. Thanks for the info on shutdown thresholds. I don’t have a hertz meter and that was one of the questions I was going to ask you about. If I replace the voltage regulator, should I order one of the panel hertz meters and just install it at the same time? I’m thinking I will need it to set up the generator once the new regulator is installed. Here is the one I was looking at from ASAP (if there is a cheaper or portable one I should get, let know) http://www.partsfortechs.com/asapcart/hertz-frequency-panel-meter-3-12-110-120v-p-117.html

I agree with you on the only two things left are an internal failure of the alternator or the voltage regulator. Obviously I hope it’s not the first. That is why I when back and rechecked all the resistance readings in the AC windings and the excitation windings. Figured if there was no shorts to ground or open circuits, it should work don’t you think?

 

I usually use a multimeter with the ability to read hertz. I plug it into an ac outlet to read it. That way I can add a load and watch the voltage and hertz at the same time. If you go with the multimeter then you can go into business fixing these stupid things!

Look at pages 5 & 6 of section 7.3. You will see the references to frequency.

-John

 

It's so funny that I stumbled upon this thread because I own the boat in question! I have since changed the name to "Partnership" but it's home port is Edgewater, MD. I am dealing with a new issue with the generator now. But the symptoms are exactly the same that the OP had. I'm curious if the OP had a fix to his original issue and I'm curious to know what was done. I'm also in need of the service manual if available. Thanks!
AJ

 

Starting or shutting down a generator with a load on it typically results in a voltage regulator failure.
A failed voltage regulator can cause a shutdown of the generator as well as low voltage output.

 

Boy, I wish I had read this post a couple of weeks ago...I've owned boats for 40+ years, but just stepped up to my first-ever boat with a generator. The first two times I ran it, I didn't know better and simply shut the generator off at the switch without removing the load first. Now it will randomly shut down even though I believe there is good oil pressure and no overheating of either the closed or raw systems, so I'm wondering if it's the voltage regulator of if maybe I compromised the control board. Some trips it's never, some trips it's after 15 minutes, sometimes 2 hours. But it's usually 30 seconds after I've gotten in the water and comfortable on my float that the system monitor alarm goes off telling me the genset stopped running LOL

I'll be troubleshooting and repairing in the next few days. If it turns out there are faulty parts, is it safe to use an automotive voltage regulator, or do I need to stick with a marine one? What about the oil and temp sensor switches--automotive ok, or stick with marine? I was thinking about running wires to the dash and installing a set of gauges so I can watch the genset status along with the engines, but that's a winter project. Thanks

 

Given the variable timeframes between shutdowns, I’m wondering if its either a load issue, or a component within the generator failing. The Engine Controller will only shut the engine down if (a) the safety sensors trip, or (b) the engine overspeeds (>64hz if I remember correctly, but adjustable).

When it does die – does it restart without any issue?

Can you get no-load readings to start? (voltage and frequency). I believe you should be 62hz, and between 122-126volts. Then, start loading it up (once warmed up) – the AC units and water heater are good options. Continue to monitor voltage and frequency. The engine RPM’s should remain constant, although the carb opens up to provide the added power to compensate for the additional load. With the AC units, you may need to lower the temp to get them to ‘run’. Also, upon first power up, the AC units seem to stagger themselves – so they don’t kick on exactly at the same time.

If you have the unit opened up – check the heat sink at the top of the Engine Controller, and make sure the two tiny bolts that hold the transistors are snug/tight. If these are loose, the transistor can overheat (or burn up), which kills the ignition/fuel pump.

While you’re at it, validate that the governor has enough oil in it. Lower most bolt on the back, and oil should just start to dribble out. Fill is the bolt on the top.

 

Yep, when it dies it starts right back up with no issue, runs perfectly until the next hiccup, amost as if it was temporarily starved for fuel. I know the PO just had the generator serviced including a carb rebuild and it was working great.

I'll check the heat sink transistor bolts and governor oil, a good place to start....then start it up and monitor the frequency/voltage from cold no load through warm and loaded. It "sounds" like it's operating correctly, idling smooth and a consistent RPM. You can hear the engine accomodate added load by slightly bogging then immediately ramping back up to what sounds like the previous RPM's. Anyway, thanks for the tips on a good place to start!

 

Given the variable timeframes between shutdowns, I’m wondering if its either a load issue, or a component within the generator failing. The Engine Controller will only shut the engine down if (a) the safety sensors trip, or (b) the engine overspeeds (>64hz if I remember correctly, but adjustable).

When it does die – does it restart without any issue?

Can you get no-load readings to start? (voltage and frequency). I believe you should be 62hz, and between 122-126volts. Then, start loading it up (once warmed up) – the AC units and water heater are good options. Continue to monitor voltage and frequency. The engine RPM’s should remain constant, although the carb opens up to provide the added power to compensate for the additional load. With the AC units, you may need to lower the temp to get them to ‘run’. Also, upon first power up, the AC units seem to stagger themselves – so they don’t kick on exactly at the same time.

If you have the unit opened up – check the heat sink at the top of the Engine Controller, and make sure the two tiny bolts that hold the transistors are snug/tight. If these are loose, the transistor can overheat (or burn up), which kills the ignition/fuel pump.

While you’re at it, validate that the governor has enough oil in it. Lower most bolt on the back, and oil should just start to dribble out. Fill is the bolt on the top.

Well, I finally got to do some genset troubleshooting. To start, I checked the transistor bolts as suggested, good and tight. I replaced the fuel pump--it looked original, I already had a spare "just in case", and with it being right there it was literally a 15 minute job. I also checked the fuel line...straight from genny to a new filter, then straight from there into the starboard tank. It started up and ran smooth as silk. Once it was warm, I then used the Kill-A-Watt and checked my frequency and volts--59.7 and 117 whether loaded or not. I adjusted the RPM up a little so that I had 60.1hz and 120.2V under load. Unloaded it, both stayed the same....loaded it back up, still constant. Raw water flow was great--warm to the touch out the thru-hull but nowhere near hot, and great volume. The temps with an infrared were interesting and constant as it ran; the heat exchanger where the coolant flows was right at 100-110, the engine itself was around 140...but the exhaust manifold where exhaust enters the heat exchanger was a constant, right at 200 the entire time. Are those normal temps?

Now---still not resolved. The genset still randomly shuts off anywhere from 15 min to an hour of run time as if someone has flipped a switch. I can start it right back up immediately, and it'll run another 15 min to an hour, then just die again....over and over, same routine. Frequency and volts constant whether loaded or not, temps constant, no stuttering or signs of an impending shutdown--running smooth as silk, then just dies. The governor is full of oil to the top fill hole. I did not get to check the infamous 85 wire or the few safety sensor leads to see if maybe a safety is shutting it down, but the fact that it immediately restarts without a single hiccup makes me think the safety sensors are good. But I'm just at a loss for where to go next. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated! Thanks.

 

If its not overspeed (high freq), then its a safety, a bad board, or perhaps engine ignition related. You could disconnect all safety (pull #85 from the engine controller board, which is Terminal 12), or disconnect one at a time. Worst case, put a voltmeter on #85 and record video (phone/GoPro) and see if it grounds out just before the engine dies.. an analog voltmeter would work best to catch any momentary grounding, or disable Auto ranging on the digital meter.

How is the engine oil level, and filter?

If your confident that you dont need the safety sensors, pull #85. If it still dies, you can ‘hotwire’ the engine, by feeding it a constant 12v to the ignition components (terminals 9, 10, and 11 on engine controller, wire #14) - which basically takes the engine controller out of the mix, also bypasses the overspeed safety (which you’ve check anyway). To hotwire, pull 9, 10, 11 off the board and find a way to provide (and disconnect) power to them. These feed the fuel pump, fuel solenoid, choke module, and engine ignition. To start the gen, apply power to 9, 10, and 11 and then press Start switch. Engine will continue to run until you manually remove power from 9, 10, and 11. Engine controller is only used to power the starter motor - no safety, no overspeed, no shutdown. Suggest doing this without load. If genset still dies - its an engine thing. If it runs and runs, then its an engine controller thing.

My problem was the transistor bolt came loose, transistor overheated and became damaged, and was only providing ~6v on wire #14 (ignition) which wasnt enough to run. Thus my experience with hot wiring it. I ended up buying a brand new board (newer version) and have been good since.

Safety Sensors:

High Coolant Temp, greater than 240F

Low Oil Pressure, lower than 15psi

High Exhaust Temp, higher than 246-266F


Ignition related components-
Fuel pump (you just replaced)
Fuel solenoid on bottom of carb
Engine ignition items (cap/rotor/etc)

Good luck, and let us know what you find out next.

 

Thanks again for all the guidance! So I disconnected the 12 wire----generator runs fine, never dies. So next step, I went to troubleshoot each safety sensor. Started by shooting with the infrared again, and made a discovery--I had been shooting the exhaust at several different points, but apparently missing one single hot spot (I'm guessing where the sensor is?) where it looks like the cap mates to the exchanger. Anyway, at that one point (and only that one point) the exhaust consistently registers between 230 and 245. So I'm guessing a small spike there is what trips the safety, at which point the engine shuts down but it's already cooled enough to immediately start right back up and run fine until the next 245+ spike. The exhaust on both sides of this "hot spot" stay around 180 or less; the coolant tank and lines stay around 150 or less, the raw water outlet stays right at 100 with GREAT volume (I took the raw water line off the pump inlet and backflushed with city water through the strainer and out the thru-hull a couple weeks ago), and both Hz and V stay constant 60.2 and 120.2 the entire time the genny runs now.

Does this mean the heat exchanger has bit the bullet, or can the genny exchangers be cleaned out through end caps like my motor exchangers? Or is this NOT an exchanger problem? I'm tempted to just use it with 12 disconnected and the safety bypassed for a trip this weekend, but don't want to do permanent damage. What can catastrophically fail if I use it this weekend and the exhaust temp at only that one spot runs too high for too long? Thanks again for working me through this learning experience!

 

$15 part - I would order a new one and see if that takes care of it. If issue still persists - then it may indeed be a true cooling issue - your right on the thresholds edge.

https://www.partsfortechs.com/asapcart/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=918

As for the cooling/exhaust/heat exchanger - I cant help you there, havent had to deal with that yet.

As for disconnecting it, eh - given you run it for >1 hr at a time, I would be cautious. Any other way to monitor temp? Any option to slightly move the sensor to a slightly cooler spot (metal hose clamps to hold in place)? Goal would be to provide you some protection - given we dont know what the true problem is yet. Would hate to have a true heat issue that runs away on you while your driving the boat.

 

Hello all just checking in here on this thread. I have the QS 4.0 I'm trying to figure out as well. I started a Quicksilver generator group on Facebook if anybody want to join in. My unit currently outputs no AC power and is currently shutting down immediately after start up. I'm going to disconnect #85 for starters but I'm still trying to wrap my brain around what was mention above with injection +12 at the control board. When measuring windings resistance are we doing that at the wires at the terminal trip where they meet the boats power feed line? I have the manual printed out but can't find Part 1 anywhere. Part one contains the schematic which I found on a thread and down loaded but would be great to have the entire Part one section.

 

Here's the manual for the QS-4.0G, QS-6.5G, and QS-8.0G. For full disclosure - I just found it online, and aside from a quick skim - it appears to be valid. It includes the wiring schematic, and several pages of troubleshooting, including testing the Excitation and Power windings. I had to break it up into separate files due to CSR file size limitations.

 

If you disconnect #85 and the engine still shuts down, then I would suggest trying to hot wire the engine. This in effect removes the Engine Controller.

When you press the START button - two things happen:

First, The Engine Controller provides 12v power to the following engine components

Wire #14 - Screw Terminal 9

Carb Fuel Solenoid
Choke Heating Strip​

Wire #14 - Screw Terminal10

Fuel Pump
Ignition Coil​

Wire #14 - Screw Terminal 11

Hour Meter
Low Voltage DC Convertor​

Second, The Engine Controller provides 12v power to the starter solenoid

Wire #56 - Screw Terminal 7

Starter Solenoid​

Once started, the Engine Controller monitors the 60hz frequency being generator by the Power Windings (Wire #11 and Wire #22) on Screw Terminals 5 & 6. If frequency falls out of spec, the Engine Controller stops providing 12v on Wire #14 and the engine shutdown.

Disconnecting #85 removes the Engine safety sensors.

Manually providing power to Wire #14 does three things:

(a) removes the frequency monitoring
(b) alleviates the Engine Controller from providing IGN to the engine
(c) ignores safety sensors Wire #85, given your hot wiring the engine​

To manually provide power to the engines IGN components:

PREP WORK

• Turn off the battery switch for the Generator
• Make sure AC power panel is on Shore power (NOT Generator)
• Make sure Generator start/stop switch on your inside power panel is in the middle/run position
• Label the wires connected to Screw Terminals 9, 10 (first wire), 10 (second wire), and 11.
• Disconnect wires from Screw Terminals 9, 10, and 11
• Using jumper wires (wires w/ alligator clips), connect all 4 wires together.
• Using another jumper wire (with inline 10amp fuse), prepare to connect those 4 wires, to the positive side of the generator battery.
• Reference attached picture for visual of how this works

ACTUAL HOT WIRE

• Turn on battery switch for Generator
• Connect your two jumper wires together, which provides +12v from the generator battery to the (4) Ignition wires.
• You should hear click (fuel solenoid), hum (fuel pump), and the hour meter will click
• Press the START button on the generator
• Generator should start, and continue to run.

SHUTTING DOWN GENERATOR

• Disconnect the two jumper wires - removing +12v from the IGN wires.

TESTING GENERATOR OUTPUT
Provided the engine starts and runs, you can now use a voltmeter and frequency meter to test the generator output. Using a multimeter, you can use Terminal Screws 5 and 6 to monitor the output of the generator

 

Awesome thanks so much! Sorry for the late reply I never got an alert to this as it went to my junk folder! I have since fixed it! It turned out to be the voltage regulator. I've got her dialed into 60 HZ and she is purring it was so great to finally get this fixed. My biggest issue is now that I don't have a dip stick for the engine. Thanks for those bypass procedures in going to print them out and carry them on the boat. I'll have to check out those downloads and see if it has Part one. I have the entire binder on the Gen but missing part one thanks so much again!!

 

I am having the same issue with my 7.5 kw quicksilver. I am reading 2.6 volts on 11/22 and 33/44. I have gone through the troubleshooting steps from the manual and I am up to checking the brushes. I hope to do that this week. I tried markrsimon's hot wire and I kept the engine running! CaptMorgan, how did you determine that your voltage regulator was bad?