Actually it's not so complicated. Both Shore power and Gen use the same AC distribution panel. The feed to the panel from either is controlled by a lock out switch. One side for gen the other side for shore. The switch is set up is that the two input circuits become mutually exclusive, I.e. The panel is fed by shore, or by gen, but never both.

If you were to add an inverter, you would have to replace the two position switch with a three position. They are made. Although these tend to be rotary style, rather than a toggle style. So the only modification would be the switch mounting. You still would have to observe any switching rules, only switch gen when it's off etc.

Henry




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Actually it's not so complicated. Both Shore power and Gen use the same AC distribution panel. The feed to the panel from either is controlled by a lock out switch. One side for gen the other side for shore. The switch is set up is that the two input circuits become mutually exclusive, I.e. The panel is fed by shore, or by gen, but never both.

If you were to add an inverter, you would have to replace the two position switch with a three position. They are made. Although these tend to be rotary style, rather than a toggle style. So the only modification would be the switch mounting. You still would have to observe any switching rules, only switch gen when it's off etc.

Thanks for the suggestion. I guess that's kind of the "right" way to feed the whole existing AC panel without much rewiring, although my first question is whether the existing lockout switching for generator & shore are actual switches, or circuit breakers, too. The owner's manual calls them circuit breakers, which means that none of the 3 way rotary switches are exactly a drop-in because they offer no circuit protection.

Since the boat isn't easy for me to access, I can't see how much actual usable blank panel space there is and whether I could fit a secondary panel for inverter specific loads. I think this is probably the best possible method if its practical to move existing loads to new breakers (wire lead length). This eliminates any overload risk and allows whatever's wired to them to automatically switch to inverter power when the generator or shore power are off.

The schematics in the 2007 manual are just ambiguous enough as to whether the main panel breakers are individually wired or snap into a bus like domestic breaker panel do.

 

Your main distribution panel (MDP) has breakers that are individually wired. The genny and shore breakers are wired individually, as well. "Under the skin", they are just larger amp versions of the other breakers in your panel.

Question... Are you wanting to do this to avoid the noise of the genny or to avoid the gas use? If it's for the gas use, you might want to re-think this. The genny uses very little gas and by the time you buy the inverter, probably another battery for the house side, and the odds-n-ends you'll need, you'll have spent much more money than you will likely ever use running the genny.

Depending on how much you anticipate using certain items, maybe just add another battery to the house side and be done with it? Also, changing lights to LED can have a big impact.

Here's a pic of an '06 280DA that I have on the lot (no genny switch). But maybe it will give/remind you of what space you have to work with (whether this looks familiar enough to your 310DA). Also, try looking at boats that are for sale (yacht world, for example). You should easily enough find one that shows the MDP.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3J9JRZY4khnV1RDU29QRDFocTA/view?usp=sharing

Here's one that has a pic of the MDP: http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...m/boats/2007/Sea-Ray-310-Sundancer-3004985/Rogers/MN/United-States#.WIU2p8MrLnA

Worst case... maybe scrap the CD changer? If you don't have it then there should already be a blank space available.

 

Your main distribution panel (MDP) has breakers that are individually wired. The genny and shore breakers are wired individually, as well. "Under the skin", they are just larger amp versions of the other breakers in your panel.

Just to clarify even further, typically residential and commercial electric panels have a fixed copper bus that breakers snap into, and the distribution feed is screwed to a terminal that runs out of the panel. Are you saying the Sea Ray MDP breakers are wired more like a switch, with a screw terminal supply and distribution output?

Question... Are you wanting to do this to avoid the noise of the genny or to avoid the gas use? If it's for the gas use, you might want to re-think this. The genny uses very little gas and by the time you buy the inverter, probably another battery for the house side, and the odds-n-ends you'll need, you'll have spent much more money than you will likely ever use running the genny.

Partly convenience of having low-power incidental 110v items always on (laptop, phone charger) and partly to avoid the general wear and tear on the generator. I will need to run it a certain amount for the cockpit grill, air conditioning, and possibly battery topping if we drop the house batteries much, plus you need to exercise a generator a certain amount anyway. I just see an inverter as generally providing a certain convenience and skipping some short-run stop/start cycles on the generator.

Depending on how much you anticipate using certain items, maybe just add another battery to the house side and be done with it? Also, changing lights to LED can have a big impact.

It already has two house batteries, although they look smaller than the start batteries and I would probably go with larger versions. I'm guessing on any used boats it makes sense to drop in new batteries anyway given that the odds are the existing cells are probably half through their life anyway if not slightly abused by storage during the brokerage phase of their life.

Also, try looking at boats that are for sale (yacht world, for example). You should easily enough find one that shows the MDP. Worst case... maybe scrap the CD changer? If you don't have it then there should already be a blank space available.

I have good high resolution photos I took of the MDP, so I know what the front looks like and the relative available space. It's the nitty gritty of the back of the panel that's a mystery. Dumping both the CD changer and the double-DIN satellite radio head unit for a single-DIN head unit isn't a bad way to get needed panel space back, either, provided I can get one that works with the existing remote controls. I don't need satellite radio and the iPod connectivity the head unit offers is probably obsolete, and new unit would almost certainly provide Bluetooth connectivity.

Going new single-DIN radio would give me ample space for an inverter subpanel and even the remote control panel for the inverter.

 

The answer is predicated upon what type of inverter you plan to install (automatic transfer switch on not). Having an automatic transfer switch integrated with the system simplifies things quite a bit. No need for complicated and cautious switching in the below electrical schematic but this inverter has an integrated automatic transfer switch. The inverter and systems the inverter operate do not care if the generator is on or shore power is on or there is no power at all. If power is sensed at the line side then the inverter switches to line power; if power is lost on the line then the load is operated by the inverter and batteries unless the inverter is turned off then - nothing, obviously. This is how my boat is configured and is NEC and ABYC compliant.

http://

 

The answer is predicated upon what type of inverter you plan to install (automatic transfer switch on not). Having an automatic transfer switch integrated with the system simplifies things quite a bit.

Yeah, the inverters I've looked at are all automatic transfer -- they don't care if the line source is shore or generator and switch to battery when either is missing.

 

Correct - the SR breakers do NOT click into a bus bar like they do in a home's panel.

Side note... I have not had the panel apart in your model, but in all the ones I have, there is typically more room in the "box" than there is in a home's panel. Although there really isn't a "box" in the Sea Ray, like you're used to in a home setup. The 110V side usually just has some type of shield over the wiring.

If you go with a new radio, it's likely going to be Bluetooth so you really wouldn't need the wired/dash remote?

 

Correct - the SR breakers do NOT click into a bus bar like they do in a home's panel.

Side note... I have not had the panel apart in your model, but in all the ones I have, there is typically more room in the "box" than there is in a home's panel. Although there really isn't a "box" in the Sea Ray, like you're used to in a home setup. The 110V side usually just has some type of shield over the wiring.

That makes the whole thing a little easier to work with. It might even be possible to feed the existing breakers I want tied to the inverter directly from the inverter output if they can be wired individually, although something makes me think this violates some rule or other although it seems like it would make complete sense and not present any problem other than troubleshooting confusion to someone who didn't know about the inverter. The MagnaSine M2000 series even seem to directly support this kind of an install with their single in, dual out configuration -- I figure "outlets/refrigerator" and "microwave" are the main two circuits I want tied to it. Nothing else on that panel makes sense to run of inverter power even if it could be done.

If you go with a new radio, it's likely going to be Bluetooth so you really wouldn't need the wired/dash remote?

Call me crazy, but I think there are two remotes on this boat, one on the swimdeck and one on the dash, and they will control more than Bluetooth does, like volume and for adjusting the actual radio. If I swap the head unit out, I guess since the remotes are there I'd rather bias towards maintaining their functionality. If anything I need to turn my kid's crappy pop music down without getting out of the water!

 

I'm for the upping the ante on the house batteries and going to LED's. 4@6VDC golf cart batteries should be plenty of amperage for what you plan on running. As for the gennie, they need to be used and used hard to keep running. I don't know why. I've also never seen a properly maintained one fail from use.

 

i don't mean to hijack but this is a timely thread for me.....I have a 2000 watt inverter I want to install on my boat to power my 110VAC outlets when there is no shore power and no generator power....I like the idea of an automatic transfer switch that detects the presence or absence of power to automatically control the inverter....

however i am a novice when it comes to electrical projects...I understand the basics and have done a few minor wiring projects so the concepts are not entirely foreign to me.....

if anyone that has added an inverter to their boat (or anyone that just knows how to do this) would care to take the time to provide a detailed set of instructions to the OP on this thread or to me offline it would be very much appreciated....pictures are always a plus if available...

maybe these instructions can become a 'sticky' for others that follow that want to do the same project....

thanks in advance.....

cliff

 

Mobo, just offering this as some more "thinking" information...

All inverters will use more battery power than they give out as some energy is lost to the transfer/change from DC to AC. That's nothing new and probably common knowledge. Obviously the microwave won't work on DC, but various device chargers can be run via 12V (laptops are actually charge via 12V... that big "block" in the cord changes 110V to 12V). The fridge can be run very efficiently on 12V, too. Changing 12V cabin and cockpit lighting to LED's can have a big impact, along with the anchor light for overnights. As an example, I once went 3 nights and 2 days on ONE group 27 DC battery - used lights, some radio, charged phones, the fridge the enitre time (even trailering to and from the water), anchor light each night... Ran the engine for less than an hour over the whole weekend... still started the engine the last day like normal. Quite honestly, I was surprised - but I did it to test things out and see how it would work.

I'm mentioning this not to try and change your mind, but more-so just in case you weren't aware of how long you can really go on just battery power. Using the inverter for things that can be otherwise accomplished via DC, though, will actually use up your battery supply faster.

 

Thanks, I appreciate the advice. Right now this is a future project and I will probably get the first season out of the boat without adding an inverter and see if I "miss" it. I suspect I may just not feel the need for it.

 

Very timely thread. I'm trying to navigate a DIY inverter install on my 2007 40DA. The install guide on the 1800W XANTREX model I'm looking at says explicitly that you must not have a DC input cable more than 5' long. This would require the inverter to be installed in the engine room.

1) Ive heard these inverters can "spark" during switching, and that the best practice is to keep out of the engine room.

2) If installed in engine room and wired directly to the house bank of batteries, how can the inverter be disconnected without having a breaker inline requiring engine room access to power down?


I had envisioned powering the inverter from the load side of the main disconnect (as depicted in the above schematic) but this would seem to violate the "no longer than 5' and 1/0 AWG supply wiring requirements.

Any advice?

 

I installed mine in the storage compartment in the cockpit above the batteries. I mounted it on a board with a battery switch so i can shut it off. It's not wired into the AC yet. WHen I use it, I simply run a shore power cord from the inverter to the shore power inlet. It's a bit "bush league" (thats Canadian for red neck), but works till I hard wire. I may upgrade the inverter at some stage but this works for the basic 110 I need while on the hook.

 

One other point is that the voltage drop and heat issue which leads to the requirement for a short cable run from the batteries to the inverter does not apply to the 120v side. Ac current does not drop much over the distances in a boat. So locate the inverter as close to the batteries as possible (but not in the bilge of a gas powered boat), and run longer 120v wires to the panel.

 

so you have a On/OFF switch for the INverter. and a new breaker in panel. the On/Off just turns the inverters power switch on, like a remote to an stereo amp, the main pos/Neg are hard wired.

The breaker is stopping the AC power coming from the inverter, before it connects to the out put side of the shore/genny power side of the AC breakers. so you stop givine AC from genny/shore, and then flip new breaker, and feed them on that side?


If it was a auto transfer would it not just detect power from genny/shore and turn off inverter... and once you kill shore or genny kick on and feed that side of the pannel?

 

I have a 4K Xantrex inverter and it is feed by the shore/genny power or 4 6v golf cart batteries. My whole 120v panel is hot, but I do not run the anything other than lights, fridge & ice maker. No coffee maker, no microwave, etc because they just chew through the batteries very quickly. It is nice that I don't have to reset the clocks on the micro & coffee maker everytime we go out.

 

I've been watching this thread and am intending to install a Xantrex XM 1800 on my boat. Since I'm diesel, I am planning on installing it on the forward bulkhead in the engine room, about 3 feet away from my house bank, and then running the AC wire to the panel. Doing some research on the Xantrex install, it requires a location that is dry and cool - the ambient temperature needs to be between 32F and 105F. I'm pretty sure that my ER gets hotter than that during cruising (though I've never put a thermometer down there to check, hmmm).

ttmott, I saw the pic of your location and it looks exactly like what I want to do. Does your inverter have the same temp requirement? If so, have you had any issues with where it's installed being too hot?

 

Ours is located forward of the port engine on the outside wall (closest to the elec. panel) the 4 6v sit between the two main engines. Our ER easily runs over 100F (I have a remote sensor for temp down there) but we have never had an issue with Xantrex. It does have an internal fan...

 

I might be wrong but if the ambient temp in the ER is lets say 115*F I don't think the internal fan on the inverter is going to help cool it down below 115*F.....the fan will just be circulating 115* air around the internals of the inverter....there is no 'wind chill affect' involved so the internals will likely stay at 115*F....now if the fan had the ability to draw in cooler air to blow over the internals of the inverter that would definitely help....but I think the available air supply to an inverter installed in the ER is going to be pretty well limited to the heated air in the ER.....

just my opinion....

cliff