Yacht Insurance

[bahamabreisus]

We have had New Hampshire for 15 years, no claims no issues. Just got another policy from them on our new to us boat.

 

[TomS]

Thanks all. I have another broker hunting, we'll see what he comes up with.

 

[Pilot]

I Shop around every year. My experience is rates change constantly from company to company each year. Progressive, Chubb, geico, boat us. I’ve used them all until rates go up. I have no allegiance to insurance companies. You can save a pretty substantial amount of money.

 

[Ramblin' Guy]

I’m Team Chubb. No issues so far. Very good at accepting premiums. Hopefully I’ll never have to find out how good or bad they are at other services.

 

[Jaybeaux]

I copied this from a Bayliner forum back in 2016. I did not write this, but I found it helpful........sorry for the small font.

 

[ttmott]

Thanks all. I have another broker hunting, we'll see what he comes up with.

It seems that some posters here don't know that insurance in Florida is a completely different animal. Statements and quotes in other states mean nothing to what we have to deal with here.
My policy is due November 7th and the underwriter I'm with (SafeWaters) is pulling out of the market altogether. My broker has been looking for an Agreed Value policy since late April when we received the non-renewal. The insurance market is pretty much gone in Florida. We have been through every possible domestic and overseas market and can't get coverage primarily because my boat had a claim three plus years ago. Declaring a claim was within three years and now five years. Other discriminators are length, where/how the boat is kept, years actively boating in the length category, and survey rating. Insurance now has a "credit rating" that also plays into the risk formula.
Anyhow, we have a policy that I'm in the process of going through that is very restrictive from Concept Special Risk out of the UK. Unless, a rabbit can be pulled from the hat this is it - around $13,000 per year for my boat.
Another path is to carry liability only and self-insure which I can do but no one in Fl will write just a liability policy. I tried to fold the boat under my umbrella policy but an umbrella must have a base policy on the boat so that idea was shot.
This whole mess is making me re-think owning the boat; if someone made me a reasonable cash offer I'd probably move the boat. It's that bad here.
Oh, as an edit - usually there are 20 plus insurance booths at FLIBS; there were two this year. One was a deer in the headlights and took my contact information (crickets) and the other (Total Dollar Insurance in Tx) is actively trying to find coverage; they have until today to produce then I have to move out with Concept.

 

[ZZ13]

It seems that some posters here don't know that insurance in Florida is a completely different animal. Statements and quotes in other states mean nothing to what we have to deal with here.
My policy is due November 7th and the underwriter I'm with (SafeWaters) is pulling out of the market altogether. My broker has been looking for an Agreed Value policy since late April when we received the non-renewal. The insurance market is pretty much gone in Florida. We have been through every possible domestic and overseas market and can't get coverage primarily because my boat had a claim three plus years ago. Declaring a claim was within three years and now five years. Other discriminators are length, where/how the boat is kept, years actively boating in the length category, and survey rating. Insurance now has a "credit rating" that also plays into the risk formula.
Anyhow, we have a policy that I'm in the process of going through that is very restrictive from Concept Special Risk out of the UK. Unless, a rabbit can be pulled from the hat this is it - around $13,000 per year for my boat.
Another path is to carry liability only and self-insure which I can do but no one in Fl will write just a liability policy. I tried to fold the boat under my umbrella policy but an umbrella must have a base policy on the boat so that idea was shot.
This whole mess is making me re-think owning the boat; if someone made me a reasonable cash offer I'd probably move the boat. It's that bad here.
Oh, as an edit - usually there are 20 plus insurance booths at FLIBS; there were two this year. One was a deer in the headlights and took my contact information (crickets) and the other (Total Dollar Insurance in Tx) is actively trying to find coverage; they have until today to produce then I have to move out with Concept.

That’s tough. What a difference a few miles makes. I’m about 100 mikes north of Florida in SC. I’m in exact same situation with AIG pulling out when my policy ends on Nov 12. NBOA shopped and got me a policy with same coverages except they maxed the replacement value at $5K less than previous policy. Annual Premium is actually a few hundred dollars less than AIG. Now this carrier has history of denying marine claims but my main reason for the policy is access to marinas and liability.

 

[highslice]

It seems that some posters here don't know that insurance in Florida is a completely different animal. Statements and quotes in other states mean nothing to what we have to deal with here.
My policy is due November 7th and the underwriter I'm with (SafeWaters) is pulling out of the market altogether. My broker has been looking for an Agreed Value policy since late April when we received the non-renewal. The insurance market is pretty much gone in Florida. We have been through every possible domestic and overseas market and can't get coverage primarily because my boat had a claim three plus years ago. Declaring a claim was within three years and now five years. Other discriminators are length, where/how the boat is kept, years actively boating in the length category, and survey rating. Insurance now has a "credit rating" that also plays into the risk formula.
Anyhow, we have a policy that I'm in the process of going through that is very restrictive from Concept Special Risk out of the UK. Unless, a rabbit can be pulled from the hat this is it - around $13,000 per year for my boat.
Another path is to carry liability only and self-insure which I can do but no one in Fl will write just a liability policy. I tried to fold the boat under my umbrella policy but an umbrella must have a base policy on the boat so that idea was shot.
This whole mess is making me re-think owning the boat; if someone made me a reasonable cash offer I'd probably move the boat. It's that bad here.
Oh, as an edit - usually there are 20 plus insurance booths at FLIBS; there were two this year. One was a deer in the headlights and took my contact information (crickets) and the other (Total Dollar Insurance in Tx) is actively trying to find coverage; they have until today to produce then I have to move out with Concept.

That sucks. I had planned to move to FLA in a few years and buy some kind of bridge boat. I was thinking somewhere near Naples or Marco. But maybe I'll target South Carolina or Georgia instead. As long as I can get to the Bahamas and the Keys.

This thread caused me to double check with my broker whether or not my boat and jet ski are covered under my umbrella policy since the umbrella is with Safeco and the boat and ski are with Progressive. Turns out they are, like I always thought.

 

[bbwhitejr]

I to have been with Safewaters for couple of years and was notified they were getting out of the business. Called NBOA and they set out looking. Keep in mind I am on a freshwater inland lake and have paid around $1000/year for agreed value solid policy. NBOA came back with Progressive same coverage for $2500 and another one for $2k that required recent survey. Called them back and left a message and an email for them to give me a call to discuss. Never got the return call. I called everyone that was recommended here and everyone I could find on the net. All were $1700-$2700 and anything below $2k wanted a survey. Wound up going back to Progressive and adjusting some of the coverage that I really did not need and got an agreed value policy for $1800. Definitely a bad time to be shopping for insurance….

Bennett

 

[ttmott]

That sucks. I had planned to move to FLA in a few years and buy some kind of bridge boat. I was thinking somewhere near Naples or Marco. But maybe I'll target South Carolina or Georgia instead. As long as I can get to the Bahamas and the Keys.

This thread caused me to double check with my broker whether or not my boat and jet ski are covered under my umbrella policy since the umbrella is with Safeco and the boat and ski are with Progressive. Turns out they are, like I always thought.

Oh, the Bahamas - Concept whom I mentioned earlier will not write a Bahamas rider into the policy. For each trip to the Bahamas, we do three or four a year, Concept will issue separate policy approvals/addendums with additional charges.

And, here is another one - I can no longer captain the boat by myself; not even to the pumpout station across the marina. I must have another person over the age of 21 on the boat.

 

[copb8tx]

Oh, the Bahamas - Concept whom I mentioned earlier will not write a Bahamas rider into the policy. For each trip to the Bahamas, we do three or four a year, Concept will issue separate policy approvals/addendums with additional charges.

And, here is another one - I can no longer captain the boat by myself; not even to the pumpout station across the marina. I must have another person over the age of 21 on the boat.

Insanity.

Can you just rent a homeless guy to keep in the bilge?

 

[The Bill Collector]

I have travelers.

They have been good to me with my mechanical breakdown claim.

+1 !!!

 

[Jaybeaux]

And, here is another one - I can no longer captain the boat by myself; not even to the pumpout station across the marina. I must have another person over the age of 21 on the boat.

@ttmott You’ve mentioned this twice I believe. Is this an age or health requirement? Not trying to pry. I’m just curious as to why.

Jaybeaux

 

[ttmott]

@ttmott You’ve mentioned this twice I believe. Is this an age or health requirement? Not trying to pry. I’m just curious as to why.

Jaybeaux

I mentioned it twice? Maybe that is an age or health situation - no?
The requirement isn't specific to me but all of the policies issued by them.
Anyhow this is what the broker sent me regarding the details -

• This coverage requires an additional person to accompany you (over the age of 21) while the vessel is underway; though I understand that this is handicapping, this is not something that is negotiable in this program. This is not a requirement for additional ‘operators’ but should be interpreted literally.
• Deductibles apply to coverage line items you may not have seen in the past because this is not standard insurance. Please read the limits, deductibles, terms and conditions carefully.
• All coverage forms are included for your review because this is unlike any coverage you have ever purchased. Please let me know what questions you have.
• The vessel year in this program is always based on the year of manufacturer, not the model year.
• Please maintain all service (labor & parts) receipts and documentation; though this is based on the Agreed Value requested, this provider is known to depreciate the agreed hull value each renewal and if you wish to maintain the same insured value in years to come, we may need proof to dispute the upfront depreciation. Documentation also always helps us advocate for you if you ever need to use your insurance.
• This coverage does not include crew; however, crew can be added (and must be scheduled/approved) for additional premium if needed
• Your prior coverage was based on operators with ‘permissive use’; however, this is a ‘Named Operator’ policy; each operator is subject to underwriting approval (approval is usually based on a minimum of 3 years’ experience on a similar type, similar size, similar waters)
• Navigation and BAHAMAS – Navigation is provided for up to 150 nautical miles for the East Coast USA and Florida. If you need Bahamas navigation, it would be at an additional premium and is subject to declaration of the dates you intend to be in the Bahamas; I recommend we add by endorsement later once you can identify the certainty of travel dates.
• Our surplus lines/nonadmitted brokerage fee of $200 applies to this; this is to offset our administrative and exorbitant licensing fees to be able to offer this type of coverage.
• Coverage is offered by a Managing General Agent called Concept Special Risks; the insurance company is Accelerant Specialty; this is a nonadmitted, surplus lines company that is subject to a 4.94% Surplus Lines (Florida) tax plus a .06% stamping/service fee (both included on your attached invoice). Installment options are unfortunately, not available; this is offered on an annual payment basis (only). Accelerant Specialty is filed in the United States and has an AM Best rating of A-.
• A 25% minimum earned premium applies

 

[Maybe A Dancer]

Watching this thread

Had issues with previous 1983 33' boat

Boat US policy lapsed for 6 months in 2009 due to personal financial constraints

They required a NEW SURVEY, and despite the surveyd value - with the Yanmar Diesels, they dropped the maximum AGREED TO insured value by 50%

When I put her up for sale in January, a deal went south due to the price and the difficulties in insuring a vessel of that age to market value.

Theres a shipload of older - 20+ year old boats on the water

I only want to insure for catastrophic failure - fire/lightning/striking a submerged object and sinking/hurricane, etc.

I ALWAYS ACCEPT THE HIGHEST DEDUCTIBLE AVAILABLE.

Wondering what will happen in the next 2 years for our vintage vessels?

This situation is a little scary.

BEST !

RWS

 

[Jaybeaux]

• This coverage requires an additional person to accompany you (over the age of 21) while the vessel is underway; though I understand that this is handicapping, this is not something that is negotiable in this program. This is not a requirement for additional ‘operators’ but should be interpreted literally.
• 
  
• This coverage does not include crew; however, crew can be added (and must be scheduled/approved) for additional premium if needed

Interesting. A requirement to have another person on board over 21 years old. Does that person count as "crew" which requires additional premium?

 

[swaterhouse]

Interesting. A requirement to have another person on board over 21 years old. Does that person count as "crew" which requires additional premium?

Crew would be paid crew. My policy allows one un-named paid crew member plus an un-named operator.

 

[swaterhouse]

I mentioned it twice? Maybe that is an age or health situation - no?
The requirement isn't specific to me but all of the policies issued by them.
Anyhow this is what the broker sent me regarding the details -

• This coverage requires an additional person to accompany you (over the age of 21) while the vessel is underway; though I understand that this is handicapping, this is not something that is negotiable in this program. This is not a requirement for additional ‘operators’ but should be interpreted literally.
• Deductibles apply to coverage line items you may not have seen in the past because this is not standard insurance. Please read the limits, deductibles, terms and conditions carefully.
• All coverage forms are included for your review because this is unlike any coverage you have ever purchased. Please let me know what questions you have.
• The vessel year in this program is always based on the year of manufacturer, not the model year.
• Please maintain all service (labor & parts) receipts and documentation; though this is based on the Agreed Value requested, this provider is known to depreciate the agreed hull value each renewal and if you wish to maintain the same insured value in years to come, we may need proof to dispute the upfront depreciation. Documentation also always helps us advocate for you if you ever need to use your insurance.
• This coverage does not include crew; however, crew can be added (and must be scheduled/approved) for additional premium if needed
• Your prior coverage was based on operators with ‘permissive use’; however, this is a ‘Named Operator’ policy; each operator is subject to underwriting approval (approval is usually based on a minimum of 3 years’ experience on a similar type, similar size, similar waters)
• Navigation and BAHAMAS – Navigation is provided for up to 150 nautical miles for the East Coast USA and Florida. If you need Bahamas navigation, it would be at an additional premium and is subject to declaration of the dates you intend to be in the Bahamas; I recommend we add by endorsement later once you can identify the certainty of travel dates.
• Our surplus lines/nonadmitted brokerage fee of $200 applies to this; this is to offset our administrative and exorbitant licensing fees to be able to offer this type of coverage.
• Coverage is offered by a Managing General Agent called Concept Special Risks; the insurance company is Accelerant Specialty; this is a nonadmitted, surplus lines company that is subject to a 4.94% Surplus Lines (Florida) tax plus a .06% stamping/service fee (both included on your attached invoice). Installment options are unfortunately, not available; this is offered on an annual payment basis (only). Accelerant Specialty is filed in the United States and has an AM Best rating of A-.
• A 25% minimum earned premium applies

Would your ability to get insurance be any easier if your boat was laid up for August and September in a facility like the one by lake O.? I would assume costs would likely be a wash, but at least get you better operating clauses.

 

[ttmott]

Would your ability to get insurance be any easier if your boat was laid up for August and September in a facility like the one by lake O.? I would assume costs would likely be a wash, but at least get you better operating clauses.

Markel would write a policy if the boat was hauled and on the hard for any named storm which is impossible for my location. We are into the "L's" on named storms right now. Markel was the only other market but had impossible requirements. The only other markets were if the home port was out of Florida and the boat was not in Florida during the storm season - whatever that is.

The bottom line is marine insurance in Fl is difficult to obtain and going to get worse. The Achillies heel for me was the lightning strike and insurance claim early 2019. Regardless, I see liability requirements in marinas moving up to $1M or even higher and many boats having to move out of the marinas due to loss of reasonable insurance. This does not even address those boats with notes on them and the requirement to hold a full policy. I suspect/hope that the marine insurance industry will come back due to the need for revenue because of the Ian impacts; but that won't be for a couple of years. However, I've been wrong a lot lately.

 

[fwebster]

I was in and watched the FL insurance market for about 30 years. What you are seeing now is the initial knee jerk reaction to a big loss storm.

1. First, the knee jerk reaction based on a fear of losses even before they know the claims loss totals.
2. The realization that premium revenue loss will be devestating to their bottom line.
3. Carriers who see FL and a revenue gold mine start writing low risk, restrictive policies…….smaller boats that are dry stacked, or trailer kept so a second party (the marina owner/operator) bears part of the risk of a catestrophic storm; Vessels must be removed from the area a named storm hits, etc. We will also see companies who have not had exposure to major storms expand some coverage to Southern States.
4. The FL insurance commission gets involved and forces the insurance carriers to issue policies on boats if they continue to cover autos, RV's, etc. I personally think this storm may force FL to establish an assigned risk pool for boats, like they did for Homeowners policies a few years ago.
5. And, finally, financial equilibrium will return. The insurance market is too big and too lucrative for the "bean counters" in the insurance industry to ignore……unreasonable restrictions will relax, rates will moderate and get competitive.

The question will be, what do we do in the meantime……? When Opal hit Panama City Beach in 1995, this same thing happened. We were not non-renewed, but our renewal (Boat/US) invoice was for about 10% of the value of our boat. I self-insured for several years until I sold that boat (1988 390EC) and replaced it with the 450DA, in 1997 at which time the insurance companies were eager to write boats in FL again.