Wrong AF will destroy fresh water engines

[Arminius]

"Fresh water" cooled engines have mainly closed cooling systems using a heat exchanger. You must use the antifreeze specified and color coded in the manual or your engine is doomed. This admonition specifically applies to engines with compression ratios over 8.5:1 or producing near or in excess of one hp per cubic inch. Looked like the Hemi in my 2020 Grand Cherokee might need topping off and I checked the manual. I need purple OAT fluid but a little orange HOAT fluid will turn it to Jello necessitating double flushing. I had a GM XT5 with incredible factors I just mentioned out of regular unleaded. Now the 345 cu. in. Hemi makes 360 hp with a dated mechanical configuration on unleaded. The secret tech seems to be the cooling of the head passages with specific mixtures of coolant. I haven't checked marine engines in a while but Volvo-Penta obviously uses it and I suspect the Mercruiser 4.5. My Hemi manual says not to use RV coolant specifically. I found the specified Purple stuff on Amazon, no water (distilled specified) pre-mixed for $22 a gallon.

 

[Stray Current]

It has nothing to do with power and everything to do with chemistry and metallurgy. Drop the wrong mix of chemicals in a 15 horsepower genset engine And you’ll have the same muddy jello in the cooling jackets

 

[techmitch]

"Fresh water" cooled engines have mainly closed cooling systems using a heat exchanger. You must use the antifreeze specified and color coded in the manual or your engine is doomed. This admonition specifically applies to engines with compression ratios over 8.5:1 or producing near or in excess of one hp per cubic inch. Looked like the Hemi in my 2020 Grand Cherokee might need topping off and I checked the manual. I need purple OAT fluid but a little orange HOAT fluid will turn it to Jello necessitating double flushing. I had a GM XT5 with incredible factors I just mentioned out of regular unleaded. Now the 345 cu. in. Hemi makes 360 hp with a dated mechanical configuration on unleaded. The secret tech seems to be the cooling of the head passages with specific mixtures of coolant. I haven't checked marine engines in a while but Volvo-Penta obviously uses it and I suspect the Mercruiser 4.5. My Hemi manual says not to use RV coolant specifically. I found the specified Purple stuff on Amazon, no water (distilled specified) pre-mixed for $22 a gallon.

 

[Arminius]

Sorry, my point is that there has been a quiet revolution in the power output of engines running on unleaded fuel. Previously, 9:1 seemed to be the practical limit above which "knock" would destroy the engine. The new tech involves improved cooling passages that allow heat transfer without vapor formation eliminating hot spots that would otherwise cause knock. I think the color coded coolants are involved. Clearly, I am not an expert. This started with a patent case in which a guy invented "reverse" cooling for his Corvette but left the exemplar with GM which allegedly stole the tech. The case was settled but now power is way up throughout the industry. Anyway, an engine is too expensive to leave to chance. Best to follow the manual and not inadvertently try to cool with Jello.

 

[Stray Current]

Ok, this is one of THOSE threads…

 

[Yendor]

Ok, this is one of THOSE threads…

Only happens when he posts . . .
Thankfully.

 

[Blueone]

"Fresh water" cooled engines have mainly closed cooling systems using a heat exchanger. You must use the antifreeze specified and color coded in the manual or your engine is doomed. This admonition specifically applies to engines with compression ratios over 8.5:1 or producing near or in excess of one hp per cubic inch. Looked like the Hemi in my 2020 Grand Cherokee might need topping off and I checked the manual. I need purple OAT fluid but a little orange HOAT fluid will turn it to Jello necessitating double flushing. I had a GM XT5 with incredible factors I just mentioned out of regular unleaded. Now the 345 cu. in. Hemi makes 360 hp with a dated mechanical configuration on unleaded. The secret tech seems to be the cooling of the head passages with specific mixtures of coolant. I haven't checked marine engines in a while but Volvo-Penta obviously uses it and I suspect the Mercruiser 4.5. My Hemi manual says not to use RV coolant specifically. I found the specified Purple stuff on Amazon, no water (distilled specified) pre-mixed for $22 a gallon.

Is this a PSA?….. @Arminius you would be fun at parties….. Get over here https://clubsearay.com/index.php?threads/party-party-party-…-in-port-clinton-ohio.115232/

 

[Espos4]

. Clearly, I am not an expert.

You said it.

 

[Golfman25]

It has nothing to do with power and everything to do with chemistry and metallurgy. Drop the wrong mix of chemicals in a 15 horsepower genset engine And you’ll have the same muddy jello in the cooling jackets

So i bot some pre mixed “good for any color“ anti freeze to top off my generator. Have no idea what is in there as I can‘t see it. Hope i’m good.

 

[Stray Current]

So i bot some pre mixed “good for any color“ anti freeze to top off my generator. Have no idea what is in there as I can‘t see it. Hope i’m good.

Hopefully so but I wouldn’t. My 5ECD says dexcool only on the manifold reservoir

 

[bobeast]

I'm surprised the title didn't say "Any AF will destroy fresh water engines'. He must be slipping.

 

[Arminius]

There's room for much confusion. A "fresh water" cooled engine recirculates an anti-freeze water mix through the block and a water-to-water heat exchanger. This engine section will not freeze and shouldn't be contaminated with other than the anti-freeze specified and colored as in the owner's manual. My point is that the wrong anti-freeze might protect your block from freezing but may produce destructive engine detonation.

"Raw" water from the lake is pumped through the exhaust manifolds and blown out the exhaust despite this being a "fresh water" engine. The exhaust manifolds retain the lake water and must be drained for the winter. Maybe you want to add junk anti-freeze before or after draining for its anti-corrosive properties but that just confuses the issue. Any anti-freeze you add is going to be blown out the exhaust before it reaches a protective concentration in the manifolds' low points.

My old Mercruiser 305 is raw water cooled and makes 260 hp. The block and manifolds are drained for winter in the traditional fashion as this is a low performance engine making .85 hp per cu. in. It does not use anti-freeze although some may pour RV anti-freeze in anyway.

 

[Bill Curtis]

LOL. I need another cup of coffee.....

 

[ttmott]

@Arminius is correct in the different chemistries in modern engine coolants. And he is correct in the fact that mixing organic and inorganic coolants can cause gelling. But "destroy a fresh water engine" or "produce destructive engine detonation" is a bit of an exaggeration, to put it mildly, hair is on fire. Mixing is the thing that will cause issues. There is the old ethylene glycol coolant that is typically green in color that most automobile and engine manufacturers have moved away from because of it's limited capability to prevent corrosion - it needs to be changed often because the corrosion inhibitors deplete within a couple of years. There is Inorganic Additive Technology (the old green stuff), Organic Acid Technology which has extended service life and more environmentally friendly, and then the Hybrid technologies that have the best of both IAT and OAT. Heck I think my Hellcat uses two different coolants - one for the engine and one for the intercooler....
If you plan to change technology just make darn sure the engine is well flushed and cleaned before changing.

• IAT coolant – older vehicles across all makes and models, typically around 2001 and older. The common color of this coolant is green.
  
  
• OAT coolant – General Motors, Saab, and Volkswagen vehicles. They’re usually orange but can also be dark green, red, pink, yellow, or purple, depending on the coolant brand.
  
  
• HOAT coolant – Commonly yellow coolant, it’s intended for Ford, Chrysler, and many European brands.
  
  
• Phosphate-free HOAT coolant – It’s used primarily by BMW, Volvo, Tesla, and MINI. The coolant color is typically turquoise.
  
  
• Phosphated HOAT coolant is a common coolant chosen by popular Asian brands like Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, and Mazda. It’s often pink or blue in color.
  
  
• Silicated HOAT coolant – You’ll use this purple coolant for high-performance European models like Mercedes-Benz, Audi, Porsche, and some VW models.

 

[ttmott]

@Arminius is correct in the different chemistries in modern engine coolants. And he is correct in the fact that mixing organic and inorganic coolants can cause gelling. But "destroy a fresh water engine" or "produce destructive engine detonation" is a bit of an exaggeration, to put it mildly, hair is on fire. Mixing is the thing that will cause issues. There is the old ethylene glycol coolant that is typically green in color that most automobile and engine manufacturers have moved away from because of it's limited capability to prevent corrosion - it needs to be changed often because the corrosion inhibitors deplete within a couple of years. There is Inorganic Additive Technology (the old green stuff), Organic Acid Technology which has extended service life and more environmentally friendly, and then the Hybrid technologies that have the best of both IAT and OAT. Heck I think my Hellcat uses two different coolants - one for the engine and one for the intercooler....
If you plan to change technology just make darn sure the engine is well flushed and cleaned before changing.

• IAT coolant – older vehicles across all makes and models, typically around 2001 and older. The common color of this coolant is green.
  
  
• OAT coolant – General Motors, Saab, and Volkswagen vehicles. They’re usually orange but can also be dark green, red, pink, yellow, or purple, depending on the coolant brand.
  
  
• HOAT coolant – Commonly yellow coolant, it’s intended for Ford, Chrysler, and many European brands.
  
  
• Phosphate-free HOAT coolant – It’s used primarily by BMW, Volvo, Tesla, and MINI. The coolant color is typically turquoise.
  
  
• Phosphated HOAT coolant is a common coolant chosen by popular Asian brands like Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, and Mazda. It’s often pink or blue in color.
  
  
• Silicated HOAT coolant – You’ll use this purple coolant for high-performance European models like Mercedes-Benz, Audi, Porsche, and some VW models.

And, this doesn't even scratch the ELC coolants for diesel engines and additives needed even though similar to the automotive coolants.
Plus there are Ethelene based, Propylene based, and waterless coolant (like Evans).
Ethelene is for automobiles, Propylene is industrial, and for high surfactant pressureless racing automobiles is coolants like Evans that can't be mixed with water.

 

[Arminius]

A mere inferece but an engine is a terrible thing to waste. There could well be a reason why these expensive and fussy coolants were introduced at the same time that 11.5:1 compression ratios were found to be practical on gasoline free of lead. What I read is that the heads avoid hot spots which would otherwise cause predetonation through clever coolant passages and coolant that remains able to transfer heat at high temps because it does not vaporize. That XT5 of mine had much hp per cu in. This Hemi is doing all right. I admit that I have lost interest in engines and will just abide by the owners' manual and pay attention to coolant colors.

I do my own oil changes despite my wealth and age because I don't trust idiots and can't stand the dealer's waiting room. This change I found the Zerox AF I had bought to top off my purple OAT was orange and claimed to be Orange OAT tech. Seems very unlikely and I got rid of it after reading about all the lawsuits brought against dealers who topped off RAM purple OAT coolant engines with orange HOAT fluid causing alleged damages.

 

[ttmott]

A mere inferece but an engine is a terrible thing to waste. There could well be a reason why these expensive and fussy coolants were introduced at the same time that 11.5:1 compression ratios were found to be practical on gasoline free of lead. What I read is that the heads avoid hot spots which would otherwise cause predetonation through clever coolant passages and coolant that remains able to transfer heat at high temps because it does not vaporize. That XT5 of mine had much hp per cu in. This Hemi is doing all right. I admit that I have lost interest in engines and will just abide by the owners' manual and pay attention to coolant colors.

Not really, the main reason is the introduction of significant aluminum alloys in most of modern engine construction and the need to extend the corrosion prevention features. Second, is to have coolants that are more environmentally "friendly".
Other than the surfactant features and except for the waterless coolant there is not really a heat removal advantage between any.

As far as the heat rejection needed on the cylinder heads to help prevent detonation, many of the high performance engines employ reverse flow cooling where the cylinder head gets coolant before the engine block.

 

[Arminius]

Thank you for confirming that the gullible Corvette owner who left his exemplar overnight at the GM garage was the innovator behind the radical increase in hp as it had "reverse cooling." I would be happy to believe Democrats, environmentalists, climate worshippers, and pet owners are the cause of color coded coolants as they are not my friends unless the pets don't bite. At least you would agree that mixing the various colors will create flow blocking Jello and other unnameable scum. Blocked head passages will obviously destroy a boat engine, especially one running 11.5:1, as stated in my title.

These new color coded coolants are not "friendly." Both my Xerox gold "formulated for OAT" but probably old stock HOAT and my new Mopar purple containers have poison warnings and contain ethylene and diethylene glycol. Starting the siphon on the gold, I tasted the maple syrup flavor that attracts pets. The Purple container is labelled "Embittered" in an obvious effort to discourage pets.


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