Winterizing the engines with an electric pump

[JV II]

I usually remove my impellers and put them on the galley counter over the winter to relieve pressure on the vanes. It also lets me inspect them closely for wear and cracking.

So, last year I pumped pink through the engines and then removed the impellers making a bit of a mess with pink. The other thing I don't like with using the impellers to draw the pink is the the crazy volume they draw. It is difficult to meter the amount put in and wasted and there is the chance of sucking air into the raw water pump when the bucket of pink runs out. Not to mention the first couple of gallons mix with the water remaining in the engine.

So, I was thinking. If I remove the impellers, close up the raw water pumps and either blow air through or suck water out of the engine to remove most of the water, then pump pink through the engines with an electric pump, it will be less messy, at a higher concentration, and less wasteful. The only problem I can see is the potential for pink back washing to the cylinder heads, which would be really bad. So, I can remove the hose that comes from the heat exchanger to the exhaust and put a bucket under it to catch the pink.

Anyone see a problem with this, except the extra work, which really isn't for me since I remove the impellers anyway?

 

[mjmason1]

I use Seaflush, http://seaflush.com/, to run antifreeze through the engines and mufflers. I fill a 5 gallon bucket then add another gallon or 2 when it gets low. Once I start pushing pink out the exhaust I shut down the engines. My Cats use a little over 6 gallons each. It's really a 2 person job. I'm sure someone will say they do it, but I don't know anyone that blows air through the engines.

I wonder if you blow out the engines, is it necessary to put anti freeze through them?

After running the antifreeze through I suppose you could pull the impellers. When I commission the boat in the spring I change the impellers. To me it's cheap insurance to change them every year.

 

[JV II]

I use Seaflush, http://seaflush.com/, to run antifreeze through the engines and mufflers. I fill a 5 gallon bucket then add another gallon or 2 when it gets low. Once I start pushing pink out the exhaust I shut down the engines. My Cats use a little over 6 gallons each. It's really a 2 person job. I'm sure someone will say they do it, but I don't know anyone that blows air through the engines.

I wonder if you blow out the engines, is it necessary to put anti freeze through them?

After running the antifreeze through I suppose you could pull the impellers. When I commission the boat in the spring I change the impellers. To me it's cheap insurance to change them every year.

Thanks, Mike. I used the Sea Flush all prior years too. The impellers are beefy and should last several years if you run less than 100 hours. The important thing is that you inspect them, so you know what you've got in there. I hate throwing away a perfectly good $200 impeller.

If you blow out or suck out "all" the water does not guaranty that you won't have a bunch pooling somewhere. The electric pump intrigues me. I use it for the fresh water systems and the AC. Why not the engines too?

 

[rondds]

JV
I wonder about forcing anything up into an engine under pressure, for the same reason you wonder. Will water/antifreeze wind up in the cylinders? I don't know for sure if it will, but if there's any chance at all, I'd pass on that technique.

When you remove the impellers, couldn't you just crack a hose somewhere and catch the antifreeze that runs out with a shop vac? I did this once when I was draining an engine of coolant in order to remove the heads. No spillage and if the shop vac tank is clean, you can actually re-use the antifreeze.

Here I pulled the hose off the manifold and caught the run-off in the shop vac.

 

[alnav]

Cummins' by-the-book procedure for winterizing the QSB (and some earlier engines I have owned) and maybe yours is to remove the impeller and drain the raw water out of the system through the zinc fittings. Then, the procedure is to pour in antifreeze through the input raw water hose to the heat exchanger. I've never done it that way as I find the Seaflush process easier and would be a little worried about getting antifreeze fully into the exhaust system. You may want to check Cummins' recommended procedure for your engine, sounds like it may be the way you want to go.

 

[swaterhouse]

After running pink through I started removing my after cooler for service. I drained the fuel/gear oil cooler by removing the zinc and captured the pink in a bucket, that I plan on using in the sumps, and bilge.

You could do the same - the zincs should be inspected replaced anyway.

Another option is to save the pink for next years engine flush, just test it and add some more concentrate if needed.

 

[JV II]

Cummins' by-the-book procedure for winterizing the QSB (and some earlier engines I have owned) and maybe yours is to remove the impeller and drain the raw water out of the system through the zinc fittings. Then, the procedure is to pour in antifreeze through the input raw water hose to the heat exchanger. I've never done it that way as I find the Seaflush process easier and would be a little worried about getting antifreeze fully into the exhaust system. You may want to check Cummins' recommended procedure for your engine, sounds like it may be the way you want to go.

Hi Al. This is a very interesting response. Everyone I know including the mechanics on the dock, winterize all engines by pumping pink through the sea strainer until it pours out the exhaust port. Some go so far as to test the pink that comes out to make sure it is in high enough concentration. I've been told by a mechanic to take the screw out of the "muffler" to drain all salt water. Here's the problem with all that. There is no muffler. The is a big black fiberglass pipe that runs down from the engine exhaust to a fiberglass tube integral with the hull. Basically, the underwater exhausts have a fiberglass tube, extending above the waterline in the engine room. It has a 2-3 inch diameter rubber tube coming from it to the side exhaust port. There is no way to drain the exhaust because it is under the water line. So, pink drains down that black fiberglass tube from the exhaust and mixes with sea water in that exhaust "sea chest" and spills over and out the side exhaust port. You'll never get pure pink coming out that side port. There is no way to antifreeze the sea water sitting in that hull tube above the underwater exhausts.

So, here is what I'm going to do. I'm going to take out the impellers, pull the heat exchanger outlet tube off of the pipe next to the turbo, then vacuum the water out of the engine at the raw water input at the strainer and output at the heat exchanger. After that, pour pink into the outlet of the heat exchanger until it flows out of the strainer.

You can't antifreeze the exhaust from what I can see because it is below the water line. You just have to pray the ice will not crack that exhaust extension from the hull. Keeping the engine room above freezing should prevent that.

Any CSR mechanics please chime in.

 

[Alex F]

Mike,

This thread will give you an idea.

http://clubsearay.com/showthread.php/39333-420-44-DB-Owners-Club/page33?highlight=bucket

 

[JV II]

Mike,

This thread will give you an idea.

http://clubsearay.com/showthread.php/39333-420-44-DB-Owners-Club/page33?highlight=bucket

Hi Alex, it's 23 pages of 420/44 DB. Any particular page I should look at?

 

[Alex F]

Hi Alex, it's 23 pages of 420/44 DB. Any particular page I should look at?

Mike,

The link I attached in previous post is landing on page 33. If you scroll down you can see my "bucket setup". IMO, you're making very simple thing difficult. Between pages 33 and 34 you see our discussion using the bucket method.

In short, there are two bucket options. Mine is smaller (garden hose size) attachments and the hose being assisted by 110VAC water pump forcing the pink to the strainer. A picture of my home made strainer cap attachment is on page 33. The other option is what Steve and Dom showed, by using larger (1 1/2" hose) attached to a larger bucket and supplying pink via gravity (no pump like I have).

The reason why I used smaller hose with a pump, was b/c this worked for ALL the systems (A/C-heat, FW system, etc.). So, it made sense for me just to make the strainer cap to use it on mains. For genny, I just stick a hose into a strainer.

IMO, both methods work just fine. We had a debate about valume vs. pressure. In theory, I could agree that greater valume is better. But, in reality, my setup worked like a charm for good 3 yrs. Never had an issue.

The bottom line point is that using the bucket setup method, makes the process very simple. You open the valve, run the engine and let the pink go throughout the entire system (including the muffler). You wait until clear pink is coming out of the exhaust, you shut the engine and the pink supply. You're done. This takes about 6-7 gallons of pink for each engine. This is the reason the buckets shown in the attached thread were large, so they can hold at least 10 gallons of pink.

Hope this helps a little.

 

[JV II]

Can someone tell me where the muffler is? There is no muffler on my boat that I can see. Certainly nothing with a drain hole in it as the dock mechanic mentioned.

Winterizing the engine is easy, whether you use its own impeller, an electric pump feeding pink from the strainer to the top, or pouring pink in to the top of the heat exchanger and letting it flow to the sea strainer. There are clearly many methods.

The question is, when pink leaves the engine, how is it not mixing with salt water coming up through the underwater exhausts, before it leaves the side exhaust port? Also, how is it even possible to winterize the underwater exhausts when you've got salt water coming in through them to the waterline level of the engine compartment. What exactly is holding undiluted pink beyond the heat exchanger?

 

[Alex F]

Mike,

I never looked for my mufflers, as I only cared to have the pink go trhoughout the entire cooling/exhaust system. There are two primary situations. Most common is winterizing mains when the boat is on hard. In this case you can clearly see the pink come out of the shafts and underwater exhaust (not the sides so much).

The other case scenario (which I think you have) is when winterizing engines in-water. In this case, your obvious and only way to see the pink goign through the exhaust is via side exhaust.

Your question is valid about pink being deluded with raw water, but in most cases running 6-7 gallons for each engine chases most of the raw water out leaving mostly pink in the system. Genny takes about 2-3 gallons.

 

[mtnandy]

So I am about to run the pink through my engines ( cat 3116 and generator) and I have a question. Before you run the pink antifreeze through do you have to get the engine temps up to open the thermostat so the pinks gets everywhere or does my system ( fresh water with antifreeze not water from the lake for cooling) push lake water through the entire system regardless of engine temp. I will be using the seaflush with a snorkel to a 5 gal bucket.

Also so I have a water heater with bypass. Is it ok to leave the water heater drained and empty over the winter. I am worried that this might cause corrosion to the heating element and tank.

 

[Alex F]

Before running pink through engines or genny, I always flushed them with fresh (city) water for good 10min. By the time I was ready to run the pink, the engine was at normal temp.

In regards to HWH, some people just bypass and drain them, but I ever since I added the bypass kit, I always used air compressor blowing remaining water out, making sure it's as empty as possible.

 

[Lazy Daze]

Andy, with a closed cooling system like you have (antifreeze that's similar to a car's antifreeze), you don't need to worry about getting the engine up to temperature since the t-stat is in the antifreeze (permanent antifreeze, for lack of a better word). Your only worry is the raw water side (lake/sea) of things which will flush out regardless of engine temp. If it WAS a raw water cooled engine, though, getting the engine up to temp still doesn't eliminate the fact that the stat will start to close as the cooler pink AF is introduced. Meaning, running pink through a raw water engine is not advisable - at least not without first draining and removing the stat.

However, running the engine with fresh water to flush it out, as Alex mentioned, is an excellent idea before putting the AF through.

 

[JV II]

I take a five gallon bucket and cut a 6 inch round hole in the bottom and a 2 inch round hole in the side at half the height then invert the bucket and put it in the water, just up to the 2 inch side hole and then pour 5 gallons of antifreeze through the 6 inch round hole in the bottom of the bucket. You will see pink coming out the 2 inch hole in the side of the bucket, but will there be any antifreeze in the bucket next week if you kept it suspended upside down in the water? That's essentially, what happens when my engine ejects antifreeze via the bucket to sea strainer through raw water pump. So, why am I concerned about antifreeze beyond my heat exchanger? Why is the dock mechanic saying to be thorough, I should test the concentration of antifreeze coming out of the side exhaust port to be sure I used enough pink?

 

[swaterhouse]

JV II first are you storing in water or out?

From my understanding is when the boat is out of the water all water drains from the exhaust because there isn't a "sump" like a traditional water lift muffler (like we have on the generators). That is why there is no drain plug.

If in water storing, the pink will exit the side exhaust and may partially mix with the sea water that is in your "muffler". You may have freezing problems in the "muffler"/exhaust but it wont freeze any faster than the water outside your boat so you would need to protect against that anyway.

If out of the water, the sea water will drain from the "muffler"/exhaust as the boat is hauled, and when you pump in pink it will exit the bottom exhaust outlet, not the side since there is no water back pressure.

Either way you still need to protect from the sea cock/strainer all the way past the mixing elbow. I built a box like described above using a 20 gallon rubbermaid tub and 1-1/2" hose.

 

[JV II]

JV II first are you storing in water or out?

From my understanding is when the boat is out of the water all water drains from the exhaust because there isn't a "sump" like a traditional water lift muffler (like we have on the generators). That is why there is no drain plug.

If in water storing, the pink will exit the side exhaust and may partially mix with the sea water that is in your "muffler". You may have freezing problems in the "muffler"/exhaust but it wont freeze any faster than the water outside your boat so you would need to protect against that anyway.

If out of the water, the sea water will drain from the "muffler"/exhaust as the boat is hauled, and when you pump in pink it will exit the bottom exhaust outlet, not the side since there is no water back pressure.

Either way you still need to protect from the sea cock/strainer all the way past the mixing elbow. I built a box like described above using a 20 gallon rubbermaid tub and 1-1/2" hose.

I store in the water. This will be my 4th winter in the water. All prior seasons, I did the Sea Flush system. It works fine. This season, I'm trying something different, just because. Because I remove my impellers for the winter and it makes a pink mess. Because I think I can suck all the salt water out of the engine with a shop vac before putting pink in to ensure maximum concentration. Because I can meter the amount of pink into the engine vs using the impeller's all or nothing 40 GPM of suction. Because I wont start sucking air after the 5 gallon bucket of pink is sucked up by the impeller. I'm going to use the top down approach of pinking my engines, pouring pink in through the heat exchanger output hose and watching it come out the sea strainer.

So, I think the consensus is that there is nothing beyond the output hose of the heat exchanger that needs pink in it. So, watching the boat spit out four gallons of pink from the side ports is a waste of pink.

I heat my engine room anyway through the winter with and Xtreme heater and oil pan heaters. I monitor the temperature daily with my iPhone and the water doesn't usually freeze around the hull.

 

[mtnandy]

Andy, with a closed cooling system like you have (antifreeze that's similar to a car's antifreeze), you don't need to worry about getting the engine up to temperature since the t-stat is in the antifreeze (permanent antifreeze, for lack of a better word). Your only worry is the raw water side (lake/sea) of things which will flush out regardless of engine temp. If it WAS a raw water cooled engine, though, getting the engine up to temp still doesn't eliminate the fact that the stat will start to close as the cooler pink AF is introduced. Meaning, running pink through a raw water engine is not advisable - at least not without first draining and removing the stat.

However, running the engine with fresh water to flush it out, as Alex mentioned, is an excellent idea before putting the AF through.

Thanks for the info. Very helpful as always.