What makes a drip-less, DRIP?
- Thread starter JC3
- Start date
- Oct 6, 2006
- 12,155
- Boat Info
- 1996 450DA
- Engines
- 3116 Caterpillars
That's easy....its worn out! To understand the leak you have to understand how the seals are made:
The seal has a Delrin (or something like it) body that runs on the shaft with a reasonably close tolerance. The upper end of the seal body has a lip seal (just like the seal on a boat trailer hub) in it that prevents water from entering the boat. The Delrin seal body is there to hold the lip seal perfectly centered on the shaft. When the Delrin body get some wear in it, it no longer runs true and wobbles on the shaft. Once it starts to move, the lip seal wears out pretty quickly.
The hoses connected to the SureSeal provide cooling water so the Delrin doesn't wear. They get worn out when the cooling water is interruped....and it only takes a few seconds without cooling water to eat one up...or when the boat is operated in shallow water. Since the Delrin body is a plastic and the shaft it runs on is stainless steel, it only takes a little sand and grit to wear the seal body out.
My guess, knowing the history of your boat as far as location and no knowing the history of your boat as far as its prior use, is that sand and grit have taken their toll. The SureSeal body is good for up to 2000 hours in a perfect world. Most don't last that long and are replaced when they start to leak. And you do need to get them replaced since this isn't something that will heal itself.
Replacing the seal requires a haul out and that is a lot of the cost. My last set cost about $850 fopr the pair. You need to replace both sides since you will be hauling the boat anyway, and because when one fails, the other usually fail pretty soon.
The seal has a Delrin (or something like it) body that runs on the shaft with a reasonably close tolerance. The upper end of the seal body has a lip seal (just like the seal on a boat trailer hub) in it that prevents water from entering the boat. The Delrin seal body is there to hold the lip seal perfectly centered on the shaft. When the Delrin body get some wear in it, it no longer runs true and wobbles on the shaft. Once it starts to move, the lip seal wears out pretty quickly.
The hoses connected to the SureSeal provide cooling water so the Delrin doesn't wear. They get worn out when the cooling water is interruped....and it only takes a few seconds without cooling water to eat one up...or when the boat is operated in shallow water. Since the Delrin body is a plastic and the shaft it runs on is stainless steel, it only takes a little sand and grit to wear the seal body out.
My guess, knowing the history of your boat as far as location and no knowing the history of your boat as far as its prior use, is that sand and grit have taken their toll. The SureSeal body is good for up to 2000 hours in a perfect world. Most don't last that long and are replaced when they start to leak. And you do need to get them replaced since this isn't something that will heal itself.
Replacing the seal requires a haul out and that is a lot of the cost. My last set cost about $850 fopr the pair. You need to replace both sides since you will be hauling the boat anyway, and because when one fails, the other usually fail pretty soon.
never monday
New Member
Frank,
Any reason you didn't replace the units with the PSS?
Any reason you didn't replace the units with the PSS?
Alex D
Active Member
JC3 said:
My starboard dripless leaks just a wee bit during the fall and winter and only when the engine and shafts are running. During the summer month it is completely wtertight and the bilge is bone dry all summer. :huh:
DavHJ
Member
I have the PSS shaft seals in my boat now for 6 years and they are totally maimtaimance free. :grin:
- Oct 6, 2006
- 12,155
- Boat Info
- 1996 450DA
- Engines
- 3116 Caterpillars
Pat,
Its a long story, but the short version is the Tides product was under warranty.
Its a long story, but the short version is the Tides product was under warranty.
W
Warren
Guest
A friend of mine with a '97 gas powered 400SD had this problem a month ago. His water pump failed on the stb engine while running during vacation. By the time that he noticed the elevated engine temp and shut it down - the shaft seal was ceased. So he hauled the boat, waited 3 days for a replacement seal and replaced the seal on the stb shaft only. Upon enquiring about preventative measures that could be taken he told me that he discovered: (a) that newer Sundancers have a cross-over tubing system and (b) Sea Ray has also added a "spare" dripless seal on each shaft that could be slid along to replace a defective one. If true, SR must have had numerous such issues.
Assuming this kind of "cross-over" system would protect BOTH dripless seals while running - can anyone confirm that these measures have been taken with newer boats? Such a system could allow a boater to get to a destination with both engines once the water pump or impeller was replaced- and without hauling out immediately. Is it possible to retrofit this cross-over system to an older boat? Has anyone done this? Has RS devised a way to replace a defective shaft seal without hauling out? :huh: Suggestions?
Warren
Assuming this kind of "cross-over" system would protect BOTH dripless seals while running - can anyone confirm that these measures have been taken with newer boats? Such a system could allow a boater to get to a destination with both engines once the water pump or impeller was replaced- and without hauling out immediately. Is it possible to retrofit this cross-over system to an older boat? Has anyone done this? Has RS devised a way to replace a defective shaft seal without hauling out? :huh: Suggestions?
Warren
Warren, Tidesmarine.com has a Q/A section that says its possible. Iam going down to my boat the 13th and really want to look at these. Iam going to follow FrankW advice and change both to do away with the worry aspect when Iam in the Bahamas. Going to haul out sometime in Nov or Dec. Take a look at Tides website, I hope that helps. JC
- Oct 6, 2006
- 12,155
- Boat Info
- 1996 450DA
- Engines
- 3116 Caterpillars
Warren,
The seal with crossover water feed are easy to spot........the seal body has 2 hose barbs on each seal. The purpose is to connect the 2 seals so that when you lose cooling water flow to onee, you still lubricate that seal from the water flow on t he othewr side.
No, you cannot retrofit older seals since you need a second hose barb.
This isn't a Sea Ray issue per se' since we all use our boats in a different way. If you run constantly in clean clear sand ffree water and never lose cooling flow, then the seal should last a couple of thousand hours. MOst of us feed the seals occasioinal sand and grit and sometimes mechancial things occur that affect cooling flow. The more conservative position is to use the crossover cooling and Sea rya now offers that on the boats. Any of us who replace the seals should spend the extra few $ to add crossover cooling as well.
The following comment is my opinion only and is not reflective of either the position of Sea Ray or one of their dealers.......but, adding the extra seal and carrier is pretty much a waste of money unless you are a long distance cruiser who spends long periods away from access to boat yards and service shops. There are 2 reasons.......while you can theoretically change the lip seal in the water it is very hard to do without damaging the new seal. You have to pry out the old one, tear it apart and get it off the shaft, then press the new one in place while holding it straight and perpendicular to the seal body and the shaft. Oh, yes.......you have to do all the above while working under your engine's oil pan in a very tight space, while standing on your head and working with one hand. The other reason is because the lip seal that you replace is not the cause of the leak in the first place. The seal body that runs on the shaft is worn and no longer holds the lip seal centered so it wears prematurely. Even if you successfully replace it, the new seal will wear out very soon since it is wobbling on the shaft as it turns.
These seals are a $450-$500 part........why mess with them on a recently purchased boat where you have no idea of their previous care. Just start over with a clean slate. A good example is JC's 450DA......somewhere in his pile of boat shopping emails is a note recommending that he include new SureSeals as a part of his cost in bring his new boat up to a known and trustworthy condition.......this is why. He's owned the boat less than a year and now is facing a haul out to get them done.
The seal with crossover water feed are easy to spot........the seal body has 2 hose barbs on each seal. The purpose is to connect the 2 seals so that when you lose cooling water flow to onee, you still lubricate that seal from the water flow on t he othewr side.
No, you cannot retrofit older seals since you need a second hose barb.
This isn't a Sea Ray issue per se' since we all use our boats in a different way. If you run constantly in clean clear sand ffree water and never lose cooling flow, then the seal should last a couple of thousand hours. MOst of us feed the seals occasioinal sand and grit and sometimes mechancial things occur that affect cooling flow. The more conservative position is to use the crossover cooling and Sea rya now offers that on the boats. Any of us who replace the seals should spend the extra few $ to add crossover cooling as well.
The following comment is my opinion only and is not reflective of either the position of Sea Ray or one of their dealers.......but, adding the extra seal and carrier is pretty much a waste of money unless you are a long distance cruiser who spends long periods away from access to boat yards and service shops. There are 2 reasons.......while you can theoretically change the lip seal in the water it is very hard to do without damaging the new seal. You have to pry out the old one, tear it apart and get it off the shaft, then press the new one in place while holding it straight and perpendicular to the seal body and the shaft. Oh, yes.......you have to do all the above while working under your engine's oil pan in a very tight space, while standing on your head and working with one hand. The other reason is because the lip seal that you replace is not the cause of the leak in the first place. The seal body that runs on the shaft is worn and no longer holds the lip seal centered so it wears prematurely. Even if you successfully replace it, the new seal will wear out very soon since it is wobbling on the shaft as it turns.
These seals are a $450-$500 part........why mess with them on a recently purchased boat where you have no idea of their previous care. Just start over with a clean slate. A good example is JC's 450DA......somewhere in his pile of boat shopping emails is a note recommending that he include new SureSeals as a part of his cost in bring his new boat up to a known and trustworthy condition.......this is why. He's owned the boat less than a year and now is facing a haul out to get them done.
W
Warren
Guest
Good advice, Frank, thanks. There is a lot for a new owner to learn - right JC! I will make sure that my friend gets a link to this topic too.. :smt024
Warren
Warren
There really is alot to learn if you are a new boat owner. I had them down to be replaced at our first haul out. The boat yard was pressed for time and i let them talk me into thinking they could " tighten it" and it would be fine till next haul out. It did stop it until we were heading home from the Bahamas. I just got lucky! I am pretty good at taking advice such as from FrankW gives but i have NOooooooooooo Mechanical ability and i made a bad choice. Iam learning though and this board and the really nice people who contribute are a GREAT help. With out FrankW help i dont know where i would be but it wouldnt be pretty! I know i speak for alot of people who THANK ALL those that are willing & do help us who donot have experience yet- SO THANKS GUYS :smt038 , JC
aquadancer
New Member
Warren,
In response to your question, my 2002 410DA has cross-over plumbing installed (presumably at the factory), but no spare seal kit.
Crossover lines came in handy when oil pressure switch failure in my first week after delivery forced me to run on one engine for about 3 hours.
In response to your question, my 2002 410DA has cross-over plumbing installed (presumably at the factory), but no spare seal kit.
Crossover lines came in handy when oil pressure switch failure in my first week after delivery forced me to run on one engine for about 3 hours.
LMBoat
Well-Known Member
You CAN retrofit the older ones to a cross-over water feed set-up. Cut the hose that runs to the shaft seal <perferably> on each engine, install a t-fitting, then connect the 2 T fittings with a length of hose.
Also, a seal leak does not mean the body is bad. The seal itself is the most delicate part of the system. Any loss of cooling water, force <stepping>, bad shaft alignment, etc can cause the seal to go bad. Just because the seal is leaking does not mean the body needs to be replaced. And the seal is only $30-$40 bucks, a seal body is several hundred. And the body is easy enought to check for wear.
Some installations, especially V-drives, don't have enough room to allow a spare seal carrier to be installed. One some models, you don't have to remove the old seal, the new one just slides on top of the old one.
Also, a seal leak does not mean the body is bad. The seal itself is the most delicate part of the system. Any loss of cooling water, force <stepping>, bad shaft alignment, etc can cause the seal to go bad. Just because the seal is leaking does not mean the body needs to be replaced. And the seal is only $30-$40 bucks, a seal body is several hundred. And the body is easy enought to check for wear.
Some installations, especially V-drives, don't have enough room to allow a spare seal carrier to be installed. One some models, you don't have to remove the old seal, the new one just slides on top of the old one.
- Oct 6, 2006
- 12,155
- Boat Info
- 1996 450DA
- Engines
- 3116 Caterpillars
I boat in relatively shallow salt water with a sand bottom. We keep our boat in a marina with about 100 large Sea Rays in the water and another 400 in barns. Over the years I've seen Tides dripless seals replaced on a bunch of boats. I have yet to see a lip seal leak that was not accompanied by some wear in the seal body. It is a true statement that the most delicate part of the seal assembly is the lip seal. So, any movement in the seal body relative to the shaft is going to decrease the life of the lip seal.
While what you say may be theoretically correct with respect to replacing the seal body, I think the more practical approach is to go ahead and replace the whole assembly particularly when we are talking about a v-drive boat. Here's my logic.......the shaft has to be uncoupled and moved back out of the transmission far enough to get access to the end so you can slide the new seal on. Maybe you are a better mechanic than I, but I've used the extra seal, seal carrier/driver approach before and there isn't enough Advil in the state of Fla to get me to do it again on a v-drive boat. So, I'd have to haul the boat to move the shafts back. At $8/ft. X 45 ft. that's $360 for the haul out and blocking. If you hire mechanical help to do the seal work, then figure 2 guys...one inside and one outside the boat, for 2 hours or 4 man hours X $75/hour for another $300 and $80 for new seals. So, I'm at $740 to just replace the lip seals.
If you are very lucky, you get the leak fixed for the remaining life of the seal body. However, if you are the average owner, your seal body has some wear in it and 50-75 hours later you have another seal leaking and you have a $740 seal do-over in about 9 months. For the same yard and labor costs and in the same amount of time out of the water you can spend about $800 more and be sure you fixed the problem......assuming there are no other alignment problems, a bent shaft, worm cutlass bearing etc.
In our area. unless its an emergency, you have to schedule haul outs, and that is a hassle for folks who live some distance form their boats. Also, any time you haul and block a boat, there is some risk to the boat.
Maybe I'm conservative, but I'll spend the extra money to be sure I fixed the problem and won't have to go thru it all over again.
While what you say may be theoretically correct with respect to replacing the seal body, I think the more practical approach is to go ahead and replace the whole assembly particularly when we are talking about a v-drive boat. Here's my logic.......the shaft has to be uncoupled and moved back out of the transmission far enough to get access to the end so you can slide the new seal on. Maybe you are a better mechanic than I, but I've used the extra seal, seal carrier/driver approach before and there isn't enough Advil in the state of Fla to get me to do it again on a v-drive boat. So, I'd have to haul the boat to move the shafts back. At $8/ft. X 45 ft. that's $360 for the haul out and blocking. If you hire mechanical help to do the seal work, then figure 2 guys...one inside and one outside the boat, for 2 hours or 4 man hours X $75/hour for another $300 and $80 for new seals. So, I'm at $740 to just replace the lip seals.
If you are very lucky, you get the leak fixed for the remaining life of the seal body. However, if you are the average owner, your seal body has some wear in it and 50-75 hours later you have another seal leaking and you have a $740 seal do-over in about 9 months. For the same yard and labor costs and in the same amount of time out of the water you can spend about $800 more and be sure you fixed the problem......assuming there are no other alignment problems, a bent shaft, worm cutlass bearing etc.
In our area. unless its an emergency, you have to schedule haul outs, and that is a hassle for folks who live some distance form their boats. Also, any time you haul and block a boat, there is some risk to the boat.
Maybe I'm conservative, but I'll spend the extra money to be sure I fixed the problem and won't have to go thru it all over again.
Ryan
New Member
So, if I understand... If my ring has 2 hoses going to it I have the cross over system, and if I were to need to be towed, I would have to make sure that at least one engine is able to idle to get water flow to the dripless? Right?
Ok, so what happens if the engines can not run? On a boat like mine with all electronic controls how could you 'lock' the shaft in place? :huh:
Thanks in advance,
Ryan[/u]
Ok, so what happens if the engines can not run? On a boat like mine with all electronic controls how could you 'lock' the shaft in place? :huh:
Thanks in advance,
Ryan[/u]
- Oct 6, 2006
- 12,155
- Boat Info
- 1996 450DA
- Engines
- 3116 Caterpillars
The answer to your first question is yes, you have the cross over system. And, yes you do need to keep one engine running.
If you must tow the boat a long distance without the engines running, then you should tie off the shafts/props. I keep 2 inexpensive pipe wrenches on the boat when we take trips for this purpose, but I have done it with extra dock lines.
If you are going to tow a short distance at low speeds, then you probably don't need to tie off the shafts.
There are 2 issues involved here...one is the shaft seals which must be lubricated with water; the other is the transmissions which can be damaged by the props "windmilling" if the boat is towed without the engines running.
If you must tow the boat a long distance without the engines running, then you should tie off the shafts/props. I keep 2 inexpensive pipe wrenches on the boat when we take trips for this purpose, but I have done it with extra dock lines.
If you are going to tow a short distance at low speeds, then you probably don't need to tie off the shafts.
There are 2 issues involved here...one is the shaft seals which must be lubricated with water; the other is the transmissions which can be damaged by the props "windmilling" if the boat is towed without the engines running.
My shafts have key slots in them. I picked up some keys that fit the slots at Ace Hardware when I bought the boat thinking that Sea Ray forgot to give them to me.... but... if I put the keys in the shaft, the shafts won't spin.... I wonder what would happen if I put in gear with the keys in the shaft? :grin:
I would also add that, since your 52 is probably set up like my 480, the hose to each shaft seal comes off the transmission oil cooler and so it is last in line on the raw water circuit. Eash shaft has it's own hose off the oil cooler's jacket and then a crossover between them. Therefore, one of the raw water pumps has to be working to lubricate the things. Another danger is that if the raw water system in the transmission cooler is plugged with crap, you can damage the shaft seals.... hence you need to make sure the raw water system on the engine is clean.
Ryan
New Member
Four Suns said:
You make me laugh! :grin:
I will look for the key slots, but I did not notice any today, when I was looking at the shafts...
Mine are between the transmission and the dripless.... I'll post a picture this weekend.
Maybe they only did this for the Cummins engines thinking they would vibrate themselves into oblivion and need to be towed in...
Maybe they only did this for the Cummins engines thinking they would vibrate themselves into oblivion and need to be towed in...
