Water in 2 cylinders when de-winterizing, what to do now. block or head gasket issue?

[glocklt4]

Re: Water in 2 cylinders when de-winterizing, what to do now. block or head gasket is

For future reference when using one of those red straw tubes on a spray can in a cylinder, put a piece of tape on the tube. Use about an inch and a half of tape and center the straw in the tape and fold it over on itself. This 'wing' shape will prevent the tube from going into the cylinder if it should come off during use.

Ahhh.. good idea! I will do this for sure every time from now on, you can bet that!

 

[glocklt4]

Re: Water in 2 cylinders when de-winterizing, what to do now. block or head gasket is

This may help retrieving the tube

It's out now thanks to my buddy's handy work with a hanger bend grabbing it after turning the engine over a bit, but I was on the phone with Autozone finding out if they were open and had any of these in stock when he pulled it out. My dad has a couple and these are definitely invaluable. Going to stop and get a couple for myself for sure.

 

[testlab]

Well no doubt it's not the block. That's the good news. The spacers and elbows are not the worst I have seen but I would be looking at the manifolds too. There doesn't seem to be a lot of rusty trails or ponding on the turbulators from those photos. I would of thought a leak from somewhere in the riser or spacer would have left a telltale stain on the turbulaters.

Just from the photos, I would be pulling the manifolds too... It's not too much more work if there aren't any frozen studs and seven years for a raw water cooled engine is quite a while if it's been in salt water (I missed if it was a salt or fresh water boat).

Edited again.... I have left the original text from above so I don't look a complete twit.... I just went and looked at the photos again and one turbulator is covered in rust and the other has a rust stain running over one edge in just a single small place. Obviously one side was much worse than the other and riser and/or spacer failure looks like the culprit.

I would however still check those manifolds.

 

[glocklt4]

Re: Water in 2 cylinders when de-winterizing, what to do now. block or head gasket is

Well no doubt it's not the block. That's the good news. The spacers and elbows are not the worst I have seen but I would be looking at the manifolds too. There doesn't seem to be a lot of rusty trails or ponding on the turbulators from those photos. I would of thought a leak from somewhere in the riser or spacer would have left a telltale stain on the turbulaters.

Just from the photos, I would be pulling the manifolds too... It's not too much more work if there aren't any frozen studs and seven years for a raw water cooled engine is quite a while if it's been in salt water (I missed if it was a salt or fresh water boat).

Edited again.... I have left the original text from above so I don't look a complete twit.... I just went and looked at the photos again and one turbulator is covered in rust and the other has a rust stain running over one edge in just a single small place. Obviously one side was much worse than the other and riser and/or spacer failure looks like the culprit.

I would however still check those manifolds.

Thanks for your reply. Just to be sure I'm understanding, the turbulators are the lip built into the gasket that angles up towards the elbow and this piece is there to catch condensation dripping down the inside rim of the riser/elbow to prevent it from dripping down into the exhaust manifold, right?

Also, I don't have an issue with taking off the manifolds, but what am I going to be looking for? At this point I have vacuumed out any pieces of rust or old gasket material and they look like they are in decent shape on the inside, except a bit of rust sitting in the cup of that one cylinder (which I'm thinking I could spray something on to help remove and vacuum out possibly - course this may be better done with the manifold off anyway or when I'm sure the exhaust valve isn't open.

Lastly, can someone please help me out trying to find replacement parts? Looking for kits with everything including gaskets/bolts, and would like to find both a kit including and one excluding the actual manifolds (since I'm not sure yet that I will be replacing them). Many of the kits I keep finding are wet vs dry. I believe that my exhaust manifolds/risers are considered "dry", meaning that the water flows between all of them through tubes outside of the central jacket and exhaust flow gasket area (has separate orange gaskets for these tubes that you can see in pictures). Seems like a great idea whoever designed this so there is less chance of a leak!

 

[glocklt4]

Re: Water in 2 cylinders when de-winterizing, what to do now. block or head gasket is

Think that I'm making good progress on a part list actually:

-- Manifolds - 865735A02 - $255 each new for Mallory brand on Amazon, or $310-20 each for new Mercruiser brand from boats.net or ebay (is Mallory any good on exhaust manifolds??)
-- non-restricted gaskets for manifold to riser - 27-864547A02 - $30ish
-- restricted gasket for riser to elbow - 27-864850A02 - $30ish
-- 3" riser kit - 864929A3 (contains both sets of gaskets above, two 3" risers, 8 riser bolts) - $410 new on ebay
-- 7deg elbow riser - 864309T02 - $200 each new on ebay

So total parts we're looking at just over $800 for just risers, elbows and gaskets, and another $510-650ish if manifolds need replacing, depending on Mallory vs Mercruiser brand.

I don't have a problem replacing the risers and manifolds since I've seen so much rust in them and I know that's where the damage was occurring, however an additional $650 for manifolds makes me want to be SURE that i need to replace them (which at this point I don't think that I do). So any further recommendations on making sure that the manifolds are ok would be greatly appreciated! Pics should tell a lot I'd think.

 

[testlab]

On a salt water cooled engine the manifolds are subject to the same corrosive conditions as the risers and spacers. They are however made with thicker jackets so they last much longer. A radiator repair shop should be able to pressure test them or you can do it with them in place if you can hire or borrow a pressure tester and adapt it to the hose fittings.

The turbulators are the upturned gasket lips just as you described.

I wish I could buy parts at those prices here in Australia. A set of elbows and related parts runs out around $2000 each engine here.

Here's a question regarding maintenance schedules... At what interval after replacing elbows and risers do you start pulling them off for inspection. I was advised to leave for three years and then pull them every year for inspection after that? Does this sound reasonable?

 

[glocklt4]

Re: Water in 2 cylinders when de-winterizing, what to do now. block or head gasket is

My boat is freshwater only (now), however the previous owner (engineer at NASA), said that he ran it in salt water a few times but flushed after. Trust the word of most NASA employees, so I don't think that the salt water has anything to do with this. I've owned it for 4 years now and it's only a 7 year old boat, so..

There is definitely rust color inside the water tubes of the manifolds, but I don't know that it indicates a problem with the manifolds themselves as much as just that the rusty water from the risers has dried on them. I will try to clean some of that off and get a better look inside, and also try to find a place that could check them out for me.

Pulling this kind of stuff off for inspection every year would be quite a hassle!!

 

[dan313]

Re: Water in 2 cylinders when de-winterizing, what to do now. block or head gasket is

Last year I also had water in two of my cylinders. Turned out to be the manifolds. When they were removed they looked like new. The both had pin holes up inside, couldnt see any signs of a leak with a visual inspection. Had to pressure test them to find the leak. The motor only had 200 hrs on it.
Its a salt water boat.

Good Luck,

 

[glocklt4]

Re: Water in 2 cylinders when de-winterizing, what to do now. block or head gasket is

Last year I also had water in two of my cylinders. Turned out to be the manifolds. When they were removed they looked like new. The both had pin holes up inside, couldnt see any signs of a leak with a visual inspection. Had to pressure test them to find the leak. The motor only had 200 hrs on it.
Its a salt water boat.

Good Luck,

Ouch, that's not good to hear. Did you have rust in the exhaust ports of your spacers/risers as well, or was it isolated to the manifolds?

 

[glocklt4]

Re: Water in 2 cylinders when de-winterizing, what to do now. block or head gasket is

Guys, I called around today to try to find a place that may test my manifolds to be sure that they are ok. All of them ended up saying that I'd need to go to a machine shop for it, and that some would only be able to test the outside and not the inside water channels.

In describing the problem to them (without pictures), two marine shops said that they were a bit doubtful of the dry joint risers really being the problem - that they rarely have issues. Is there ANY hesitation at all from what you've seen to say that the risers/elbows are the problem here? I definitely don't want to put her back together and have this issue again.

Also, they both asked if the boat was in salt water to have rust damage on a 2005. As I mentioned before the previous owner said that he ran in salt water a few times around Houston, but he flushed after. I trust that he was honest about this being a NASA mechanic, but who knows...

The MarineMax mechanic mentioned head gaskets a few times and said that it very well could have been the problem. Since we went over the water vs AF issue, and how water came out of my risers plug on one side still, not AF.. and AF came out of the block and water pump plugs, I am still a bit leery of head gasket issue since I have never overheated the engine.

Thank you all!

 

[390x]

Re: Water in 2 cylinders when de-winterizing, what to do now. block or head gasket is

I've had a head gasket fail and get water in the cylinders. I didn't overheat the engine either. The gasket failed between cyls 1 and 3. No idea why.

 

[dicor]

Re: Water in 2 cylinders when de-winterizing, what to do now. block or head gasket is

Something to maybe think about. Is it possible that when you connected the muffs last fall to winterize it you began pumping water, you then fogged the engine, the engine shut down, the water continued entering the engine but could not be pumped out because the motor shut down and you filled the manifold and it spilled over into the head? Now I don't know if this is even possible but I'm sitting here thinking about it and don't see why it can't. If anyone has any thought on this theory please chime in.

 

[BonBini]

Re: Water in 2 cylinders when de-winterizing, what to do now. block or head gasket is

Dicor: In the back of my mind I also think this is possible if conditions are right.

Ie: a cheesball set of ear muffs will leak like a sieve and not put much water past the impellor when the engine is not running. However; say a high dollar professional set of muffs was on with the cross bolt to positively lock them to the drive with no leakage, then 50 psi of garden hose pressure applied, the water drains at the transom a little plugged with maybe a flapper or whatever. “Y” pipe fills up then spills into the exhaust? Long shot, but sht happens.

Glocklt4: I’m not hands on familiar with your specific water cooled manifold set up. But just for the sake of conversation; From your pics, it looks like you have in/out water ports on those manifolds. Can you plug the out and plum the 50 psi garden hose to the other and pressure test them yourself? I do this with oil coolers all the time!

 

[glocklt4]

Re: Water in 2 cylinders when de-winterizing, what to do now. block or head gasket is

I do make sure to have enough water going before I crank the motor, and I do not turn off the water until after I have shut off the engine. I usually try not to have it going full blast, but I also make sure that I have enough water volume that the impeller can't suck it all up and there is extra coming out the sides (rather have too much than starve the engine of coolant).

I do not believe that it's possible for water to get from muffs up into exhaust chambers themselves, without a leak or serious problem somewhere else. The exhaust gases come out of the end of the prop, not where the muffs go. If you're thinking that I got water into the risers that leaked through a crack into the exhaust, that shouldn't have happened either because I drained the block after I ran the engine for the last time, then I disconnected hoses and poured Antifreeze in. Since water came out of the port side manifold drain plug when I was trying to figure out what happened, it's more likely that somehow I didn't get all the water out of the risers and a leak there managed to slowly go into the cylinders.

Yes, I do plan on testing with the hose as you suggest.

 

[testlab]

Pressure testing... No so difficult to do yourself.

You need a radiator pressure tester and some hoses you can adapt to fit from the tester to the water inlets on the manifolds. The hardest part is blocking off the holes that feel water up into the risers and elbows. You could probably make some gaskets out of cork, cover the holes in the manifolds and bolt the riser extensions down to compress them tightly.

Pump up the radiator tester and wait to see if it loses pressure. If you put the temp gaskets between the riser/extension and elbows you will then test both the manifolds and extension.

I mentioned the possibly of the flushing causing a problem and I will try and find where I saw it and send you a link or file.

I doubt it's head gaskets or similar as it's both sides.

 

[glocklt4]

Re: Water in 2 cylinders when de-winterizing, what to do now. block or head gasket is

Pressure testing... No so difficult to do yourself.

You need a radiator pressure tester and some hoses you can adapt to fit from the tester to the water inlets on the manifolds. The hardest part is blocking off the holes that feel water up into the risers and elbows. You could probably make some gaskets out of cork, cover the holes in the manifolds and bolt the riser extensions down to compress them tightly.

Pump up the radiator tester and wait to see if it loses pressure. If you put the temp gaskets between the riser/extension and elbows you will then test both the manifolds and extension.

I mentioned the possibly of the flushing causing a problem and I will try and find where I saw it and send you a link or file.

I doubt it's head gaskets or similar as it's both sides.

Thanks for the ideas on the pressure test. I'll see what I can do this weekend.

On your note about head gaskets being unlikely due to both sides, that's also what I was thinking, however I didn't think that two risers would go at the same time either. Both sides at once at all is just a coincidence i guess...

 

[390x]

Re: Water in 2 cylinders when de-winterizing, what to do now. block or head gasket is

Merc, historically, doesn't use great gaskets.

 

[glocklt4]

Re: Water in 2 cylinders when de-winterizing, what to do now. block or head gasket is

Merc, historically, doesn't use great gaskets.

At all? Or specific to heads or risers?

 

[glocklt4]

Re: Water in 2 cylinders when de-winterizing, what to do now. block or head gasket is

Can you guys tell me if both of these look ok? One appears to have some drip of paint and the other doesn't. Could one of these be used with a repaint like I read about somewhere?? If it looks ok, then I still think i need to file that down a bit so the gaskets seal better.

 

[Puma]

Re: Water in 2 cylinders when de-winterizing, what to do now. block or head gasket is

That exhaust looks immaculate to me, I just pulled my failed dry joint off my 2006 Dancer and it looked like it had been to war; yours look almost brand new.

However, I am a bit curious about the paint on the gasket surface; mine don't look like that, they are shiny metal on all the gasket sealing areas. I'd wait for others to comment, but I think you might want to get that milled down to metal (and get it flat again) if you are going to reuse these parts.

Can you guys tell me if both of these look ok? One appears to have some drip of paint and the other doesn't. Could one of these be used with a repaint like I read about somewhere?? If it looks ok, then I still think i need to file that down a bit so the gaskets seal better.