trailer brakes and set up...

[CliffA]

i am new to this forum site and posted the following questions in the maintenance forum which i believe is the wrong place.....i think it should be posted in this forum, so if you can help, thanks in advance...

my newly purchased 1998 215EC came equipped with a 2002 aluminum dual axle bunk trailer made by magic tilt...the trailer has surge drum brakes on the front axle...this is my first experience with surge brakes so i have a few questions...i have done some searching and found info on some of my questions but i thought i would also ask my new found friends on this forum for your input as well... i bought the boat near Orlando, FL and pulled it all the way to upstate SC so i had plenty of time to hear and feel how the brakes supposedly work...sorry in advance for the long post..

1. the first thing i noticed was a very loud and abrupt extension and contraction of the controller as the tow truck starts and stops...i understand the way the system works but i was surprised at the 'clunkiness' of this action...i would think the controller would act similar to the way a brake pedal on a car works...when the tow vehicle stops the controller piston is depressed which pressurizes the hydraulic fluid which should act as a 'cushion' of sorts...it appears that there is no cushion from the pressurization of the hydraulic fluid and the controller is just banging against the mechanical stops both forward and backward...is this normal?
2. i have seen some 'cushion hitches' on line that claim to soften this banging around of the brake controller...do these things work and are they worth the money?
3. i am thinking the best way to check to see if the brakes are even working would be to jack up one wheel and spin it...then use a screwdriver to engage the controller piston to see if the wheel stops spinning...is this the best test?
4. i want to bleed the system and repalce the hydraulic fluid...i assume it is just like a car braking system in this respect...anything to be concerned about here?
5. are all trailer brake pads the same?...if i buy brake pads for a 14" wheel does it have to be brand specific?
6. if i wanted to install brakes on the other axle can i use the same controller?...is it as simple as putting a 'T' in the brake lines to feed the other brake cylinders?....would all (4) brakes be adjusted the same or should one axle be adjusted so that those brakes engage slightly before the other axle?
7. when the boat sits on the trailer the transom is hanging over the end of the bunk approx 2 inches...is this enough to be concerned about causing a 'hook' in the hull?...i have not measured the tongue weight yet but plan to do so soon...if adjustments in the tongue weight are needed this will be the time to make the winch stand and/or bunk adjustment if needed...
8. the trailer has a fresh water flushing system installed on the brakes...is flushing needed if the trailer is only dunked in inland lake water?
9. i will need to install new tires on the trailer before the summer...i understand how the sizing and ratings work, but not sure if there are any brands to stay away from...this may be opening a can of worms as i am sure opinions differ here but any suggestions on tire brands?
10. how do you keep wheel bearing grease from pushing out the rear hub seal and making a mess inside of the brake drum?... the wheels have bearing buddies installed on each hub...
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[KC WV]

Guess you don't need to apologize for the long post if I'm going to have such a long reply...

Hope you enjoy your 215 as much as I do mine. Getting ready for the 4th season with her. I've got an eagle trailer with the surge brakes. brakes are on the rear axle. In most cases, the brakes are located on the rear axles. The only reason I know, is so the braking action is working the axle furthest from the tow vehicle for control and stability. If anybody knows another reason let us know. As far as stopping power, I don't think it matters. I've seen both, but mostly on the rear axle. Now for your ?'s
1-I only hear the actuator when taking off, never when hitting the brakes to slow down. Some cases of when it clunks upon hitting the brakes is caused by a bad master cylinder and it needs replaced. That happened to me on my last boat trailer, and I found a shot master cylinder.
2-If the system is working properly, you don't need this in my opinion. You will get "in tune" with pulling with surge brakes. For example, when I take off from a red light, I let my foot off the brake and allow the truck to idle and feel the actuator extend (only takes less than a second) rather than nailing the throttle right off the brake.
3-takes two people but works, but if it doesn't stop the wheel, you may just need to adjust the brakes. You can take the drum off and watch the brake shoes to see if they move when you actuate the system with a screwdriver. But only take one drum off at a time to do this because the hydraulic pressure will only activate the brake furthest from the master cylinder, and the other one won't move. To adjust the brakes, back the adjusting nut out to where you hear contact when spinning the wheel, then turn back in slightly. You want the brakes to rub slightly to wear in the new shoes.
4-yes. and just like a car, remember to start with the brake furthest from the master cylinder. On my trailer, the brake line runs from the master cylinder, down the starboard side of the trailer to the T. so I would bleed the port side first.
5-I buy all my trailer parts from champion trailers. Plus, they have lended valuable advice. I'd contact them to answer this one. two years ago, I found out I could buy the entire drum brake cluster, including pads, for around the same price as other companies wanted for just the pads. I'd recommend changing the wheel cylinders and go w/ aluminum vs steel if you don't buy the entire cluster. They're known to stick, especially if used in saltwater.
6-I'm not sure on this one, but I'm sure our experts on here will chime in.
7-I've experiemented with shifting the tongue stop. I'd be more concerned with the tongue weight near 10% than the overhang. It's true that hooking is caused by this, but with I/O's, 2" shouldn't be a concern. My Dad has an '86 model searay on an EZLoader trailer, and the rollers are further forward and it's not hooked. (nor is the hull dented, but that's another can of worms.) Hook ismore of a problem on outboards where all the engine weight was on the transom.
8-I'd say no, the flushes are for salt and brackish water only.
9-Despite the bad reviews on Carlisle tires, I bought a set of them last year. so far so good (knock on wood). I've always had good luck with them, but others had problems, and they got a bad rep. I ran them on my last trailer for 8 years with no problems. An internet search will reveal the concerns, but I've found the problems they had a few years ago have been resolved. Goodyear marathons are my other top choice, based on reviewing the web, but they too had a few years with problems. The most important thing for getting tires for a trailer is buying the "ST". But due to the design of all ST tires, they absolutely must be maintained at the required cold air pressure, and should never be used at speeds exceeding 65 mph...regardless of manufacturer.
10-you need to replace the seals. If you have the bearing buddies that are spring loaded, don't overfill. some of the newer "Redeye" from walmart are color coded so you know when you have enough grease pressure. Overfilling will cause them to blow off. Other brands have bleeder holes relieving the pressure, but they usually cause the grease to splatter all over the outside of the wheels.

 

[Westie]

1) it might be as simple as your brakes need adjusting.

 

[CliffA]

thanks KC WV and Westie...i did some digging around in this forum archives after i posted these questions and found good info on most of them...i guess i should have done more searching before posting, but i will know next time....

 

[KHARRIMAN]

I really wanted to post on this thread too....but have been super busy.....
KC basically nailed it but also....

2. I had one of those cushion hitches- it "clunked" very badly when stopping and then starting out again...I think they are a waste...get a good- fitting hitch and PIN! A loose pin will also cause the clunk.

5. Above brands... I felt t was more important to get the right WIDTH- which translates into more stopping power- as well as more longevity. Will get you a website that I used but i can't remember it now. Trailer superstore or something....

6. I think all trailer brakes shopuld be adjusted the same but also consider that (for me) it is better to wear out and replace (disc) brake pads on my tow vehicle...it's cheaper and easier so I really use the trailer brakes only as much as I have to. And I don't know for sure but a "T" should allow you to add more brakes- Henrry Boyd or Four suns are the resident fluid dynamic experts

9. I have all Costco ST225/75 r15.... Only one season down but so far I have no compaints

 

[KHARRIMAN]

Here's the site..
http://shop.easternmarine.com/index.cfm

 

[Lazy Daze]

You can add another set of drum brakes without changing anything. If you change to discs, then you'd need to change some things. A "T" is fine.

You'll need to check to see if the brakeless axle has the mounting plate for the brakes. It will be a round or square, metal plate with holes in the perimeter/corners, behind (inboard) of the wheel. If you're not sure, look on the backside of one of your drums to see what it is you're looking for.

If your coupler is banging upon braking, something is wrong. Low/no fluid, bad MC, etc.

 

[CliffA]

thanks for the input guys....

 

[Lazy Daze]

Oh, you don't need any type of proportioning valve, either.

 

[Daddubo]

The Master on my trailer is shot so I started looking around to replace the system with electric or disk. Disk are out because it would run about a Grand to put them on and then you still have the problem with the Master needing to be replaced every few years, I never have had any luck keeping them working I think they rust up from not being used enough and since you are going to an another set any way look into this it is what I am going to put on mine http://www.fultonperformance.com/Brakes/pdfs/Ceq-Brakes-pgs16-27-08.pdf
They didn’t have good Electric brakes for boat trailers before but now they do, I think Electric is the best answer then you are done with the hydraulics.

 

[CliffA]

thanks Daddubo...the electric brakes do sound interesting...is there a conversion kit that would allow me to use the existing brake components or do you have to change everything out?....

 

[Lazy Daze]

Dad - keep us updated, if you don't mind, on how the electrics work out. Like what you've mentioned, I've never known electricity and water to work well together. I'd be curious to know how it works out or, especially, if anyone has been using them for a few years to see the reliability. I'm skeptical, but still curious.

Another option is electric over hydraulic.

 

[KHARRIMAN]

Mine are electric- pure electric I love them....you get alot more control....and yes I think everything would need to be switched out but overall it is an easy install
wires...no hydraulic lines
cheap swap out....~$40 for a whole new backing plate and shoes
no master cylinder reversing valve to mess with,

 

[Daddubo]

thanks Daddubo...the electric brakes do sound interesting...is there a conversion kit that would allow me to use the existing brake components or do you have to change everything out?....

You will need to change out every thing because the electric uses Magnets for actuating the brake shoes. Check your drums and see if you have the raised part inside the drunms for the magnet to ride on, if not you will have to change them also. I use this site as a guide and shop else ware you should be able to find what you need here.
http://www.easternmarine.com/em_store/tech_info/light_tech.html#wiring
You will want to go with the 7 way that is the standard plug on most trucks and SUV's
http://www.easternmarine.com/em_store/trailerbrakes/trailerbrakes_ele.html
This showes you the componets needed

You will need to add 2 10ga wires’s for the brakes 1 Positive & 1 Negative and a brake controller, most of the newer trucks and SUV's are pre wired for the controller.

I check prices all over and then add up the cost and figure what is going to be more reliable in the long run.

 

[Lazy Daze]

Mine are electric- pure electric I love them....you get alot more control....and yes I think everything would need to be switched out but overall it is an easy install
wires...no hydraulic lines
cheap swap out....~$40 for a whole new backing plate and shoes
no master cylinder reversing valve to mess with,

Kevin - has your trailer been set-up that way since 2005? How many times a year do you dunk it? Fresh or salt water? Do you flush the brakes after dunking it? How often have you "swapped out"? Inquisitive minds.... :smt001

 

[KHARRIMAN]

I assume it's been that way since 2005 but I got it in Nov. 2008.
All 3 axles have brakes.
On inspection after purchase all (6) backing plates needed to be replaced. Three had shoes that were loose-detached in the bottom of the drum leading to metal on metal, and the others were very rusted but appeared to be ok- so I just swapped them all.
So... my trailer got all new tires and backing plates from DADDubo website http://shop.easternmarine.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.catalog&categoryID=149
I dunked in ocean 3 times 2009 season. Fresh water about 6...(yes only nine sessions out last season but all are for at least 3 days...)

I rinse with salt away after every ocean dunk with a homemade- removable flush kit( will describe if anyone interested)

I don't rinse after fresh water dunks. I also unplug the trailer power at the bumper from the truck befor any launch so there is no current to the brakes in the water.

Also, when I first pulled the original backing plate they had been wired(presumably from factory?) with these:

I swapped them for regular butt connectors- which I heat shrunk and then overwrapped with copious amounts of electrical tape over all connections.

I actually just pulled on drum off 3 weeks ago to inspect the hold up- there is alot of corrosion on the backing plate and most of the harware(springs...tensioner...) but the shoes, contact drum surface and magnet seem ok. They are easy to test but it is still a 2 peson job-- jack up trailer spin tire and apply break---you don't have to be moving.

Also, because of the controller in the truck I can focus where I really need the brakes. I dial up when I'm on the freeway and turn it way down in town..... for me I want to wear out the truck brakes(pads on disc) first because it's cheaper(and easier) to replace two- truck brake pads rather than six trailer backing plates. Although at ~$45 bucks each plate(~$300 per replacement) I could really do them every season for insurance but from what I see they will probably last 3-5 seasons how I use them.

 

[Daddubo]

Here is a article from Boat US in electric brakes and that some manufactures are installing then in some of their new boat trailers.
.
http://www.boatus.com/trailerclub/upkeep/electricbrakes.asp

 

[Daddubo]

Also, when I first pulled the original backing plate they had been wired(presumably from factory?) with these:

I swapped them for regular butt connectors- which I heat shrunk and then overwrapped with copious amounts of electrical tape over all connections.

I agree with no Scotch Locks they cut the wire reducing its size. For a better connection strip the main wires spread it and put the splice wire through it, twist it together then solder it together and seal it with some liquid electrical tape then use regular electrical tape. It sounds like a lot of work but you eliminate a possible connection failure due to corrosion or a bad crimp.

 

[hoosier daddy]

I changed my surge brakes to electric last spring and LOVE them. There is no comparison. I already had a brake controller in my truck for the car trailer so it was a little cheaper but it wasn't very expensive at all. You can re-use the drums and it's a pretty easy and straight forward swap. I highly recommend electric over surge and have had NO problems after weekly dunkings (fresh water) all last year. :thumbsup:

 

[Daddubo]

Well first step to getting electric brakes on my trailer done yesterday now that the snow is gone. I pulled a wheel and measured the brakes and drums I have 2 X 12 brakes and the drums are also made for electric brakes already so it will be a easy swap. My cousin is checking pricing on the Fulton Sharkskin http://www.fultonperformance.com/Brakes/pdfs/Ceq-Brakes-pgs16-27-08.pdf which is good for salt water, I figure if it is good for saltwater I shouldn’t have any problems with fresh water.