O.K. Guys & Gals the fun has started in earnest. We have further narrowed our list to (2) 450's and a 400. The broker for one 450 told me that prior survey showed "antifreeze" in sample. Diagnosis was head gasket and that was replaced and is said to be fixed? Other engine had "lead" in oil. Thought this could be bearing failure but Cat people told them thier sample might be off because it was taken at bottom of pan. They resampled and now say its o.k.. Other 450 has also been surveyed and is said to have passed. Before someone says it " I WILL RESURVEY ANY BOAT I BUY, BY A CAT CERTIFIED DEALER" and will ask FrankW to review if he would? The 400 hasnt been surveyed recently and needs some exterior cosmetics but is offered at a real nice price. The 450's appears to be about $25,000.00 more give or take a little. Going to narrow down further then go shopping. Any thought would really be GREATLY appreciated!!JC
The Great 450 Purchase ???
- Thread starter JC3
- Start date
osd9
New Member
I know others will chime in, but if you can get the admiral to say OK on the 450, don't even bother with the 400. I would have bought the 450 over the 410 in a heart beat, but the admiral wouldn't go for it....If I had to nit-pick the 450, there were two things that I didn't like, but heck, there are at least two things that I don't like about the 410 I am buying either......1. the master bed, although bigger, is not a center line (you don't have access to get on from either side....2. The arch is a little low for me to stand up comfortably....Like I said...nit-picky stuff....
Depending on which year 450 you look at, there are two different layouts down below...one with the galley to port and one with the galley to starboard....from the three I looked at, it seems as though the later models...'98 and '99....were all galley to starboard....
Vitracore interior was an option begining in I think '97 or '98 as was the tan gelgoated dash.....
IMHO, I would look for one with the biggest engines offered....It's better to have more HP and not need it than to need it and not have it.....
I am sure that Frank W. will contact you and offer you the "BEST" advise you could ask for.....hang tight and enjoy the ride....becasue shopping for the boat is almost as much fun as buying the boat....and a WHOLE lot cheaper....
Good Luck, and keep us posted (I kind of like being on this of the post for a change)
Depending on which year 450 you look at, there are two different layouts down below...one with the galley to port and one with the galley to starboard....from the three I looked at, it seems as though the later models...'98 and '99....were all galley to starboard....
Vitracore interior was an option begining in I think '97 or '98 as was the tan gelgoated dash.....
IMHO, I would look for one with the biggest engines offered....It's better to have more HP and not need it than to need it and not have it.....
I am sure that Frank W. will contact you and offer you the "BEST" advise you could ask for.....hang tight and enjoy the ride....becasue shopping for the boat is almost as much fun as buying the boat....and a WHOLE lot cheaper....
Good Luck, and keep us posted (I kind of like being on this of the post for a change)
Dominic: The Admiral read your reply and just started laughing and said you MUST BE A VERY "WISE MAN" . Both 450's have the maple interior and 3126's. One boat has about 1300hrs but appears clean and 700hrs after rebuilds & ? good survey. The other has around 900 hrs and isnot as nice cosmetically but new canvas etc... but has some engine problems that have suppose been taken care of. Going to start negot the price on both later today thru Sat. We are going back and forth on looking at the 400 per your and FW advice. Let the games begin. :smt038 JC
- Oct 6, 2006
- 12,155
- Boat Info
- 1996 450DA
- Engines
- 3116 Caterpillars
Well, I don't know where to start..........
First, about surveys.......completely discount any previous survey that you are told about unless you wrote the check to the surveyor. Many times they are not surveys, but what some company technician told the sales department or they are a document that the broker has never seen or read, but has only been told about. Listen to what you are told about surveys and condition, and try to confirm it, but do your own due diligence and on a diesel boat that includes both a hull survey and an engine survey done by a servicing dealer for the brand engine you are considering. Always select your own surveyor and contract for their services yourself....never accept a broker or salesman recommendation. Their guys may be fine, but you never know, and at the very best, they are under some quiet pressure to help the broker sell the boat (because he refers business to the surveyor) and your recommendations may be slanted because of it. I just prefer to have the guy judging my $250K investment to only owe me.
Second, be careful with photos you are sent. Many times the photos are quite old and are no longer Representative of the vessel's current condition. Sometimes they have been "Photoshopped" to clean up images, and sometimes they are not even photos of the listed boat, but are of a "sistership" Ask questions like are the photos date stamped?, when were the photos taken?, can we get current photos?.
On the 450 vs the 400....I am partial. I do my own maintenance and the 450 is a do it yourselfer's dream boat. The centerline distance between t he shafts is huge which means 2 full grown adults can pass between the engines in a stand up engine room. Secondarily, the shaft centers means excellent control in tight places because of increased asymmetrical thrust. The down side is that a 450DA on one engine is a bear to handle. The 450 is heavier and slower, but has a lot more room in the cabin and a huge cockpit. The trade off with a slower boat with 350hp or 420 hp Cats is fuel economy .......at full rated cruise my boat burns 22 gph. We prefer to run her at about 2200 rpm rather then 2400 so the fuel burns drops to 18 gph...and we are still making 20 kts. We have a lot of no wake high traffic areas to transit to get to the Gulf and we use the boat mostly as a day boat, so a lot of my running is off plane so we can control the wake. My last fill up was all local use and we averaged 8.6 gph.
In summary, I think the 450DA is one of the top 2-3 boats Sea Ray has ever offered. Sure, there are newer things in the line now, but there isn't anything in the current line I'd trade my boat for unless it was an even trade.
On features, Dominic is correct on the interior layouts. The galley to stbd layout was done to accomodate an under counter washer/dryer........it won't fit on the port side galley, my main bunk is on the centerline and has equal access on both sides. The tan dash was an extra cost option and was offered because initial concerns were that the white dash reflects too much light. We have the white dash and its not a problem.
My analogy comparing the 300 hp and the 350 hp Cats is the same as the difference between the 350 hp 3116's and the 420 hp 3126's. The only place you would ever feel the difference is above normal cruise speeds and I personally wouldn't turn around for the difference in the 2.
More later........as you ask questions!
First, about surveys.......completely discount any previous survey that you are told about unless you wrote the check to the surveyor. Many times they are not surveys, but what some company technician told the sales department or they are a document that the broker has never seen or read, but has only been told about. Listen to what you are told about surveys and condition, and try to confirm it, but do your own due diligence and on a diesel boat that includes both a hull survey and an engine survey done by a servicing dealer for the brand engine you are considering. Always select your own surveyor and contract for their services yourself....never accept a broker or salesman recommendation. Their guys may be fine, but you never know, and at the very best, they are under some quiet pressure to help the broker sell the boat (because he refers business to the surveyor) and your recommendations may be slanted because of it. I just prefer to have the guy judging my $250K investment to only owe me.
Second, be careful with photos you are sent. Many times the photos are quite old and are no longer Representative of the vessel's current condition. Sometimes they have been "Photoshopped" to clean up images, and sometimes they are not even photos of the listed boat, but are of a "sistership" Ask questions like are the photos date stamped?, when were the photos taken?, can we get current photos?.
On the 450 vs the 400....I am partial. I do my own maintenance and the 450 is a do it yourselfer's dream boat. The centerline distance between t he shafts is huge which means 2 full grown adults can pass between the engines in a stand up engine room. Secondarily, the shaft centers means excellent control in tight places because of increased asymmetrical thrust. The down side is that a 450DA on one engine is a bear to handle. The 450 is heavier and slower, but has a lot more room in the cabin and a huge cockpit. The trade off with a slower boat with 350hp or 420 hp Cats is fuel economy .......at full rated cruise my boat burns 22 gph. We prefer to run her at about 2200 rpm rather then 2400 so the fuel burns drops to 18 gph...and we are still making 20 kts. We have a lot of no wake high traffic areas to transit to get to the Gulf and we use the boat mostly as a day boat, so a lot of my running is off plane so we can control the wake. My last fill up was all local use and we averaged 8.6 gph.
In summary, I think the 450DA is one of the top 2-3 boats Sea Ray has ever offered. Sure, there are newer things in the line now, but there isn't anything in the current line I'd trade my boat for unless it was an even trade.
On features, Dominic is correct on the interior layouts. The galley to stbd layout was done to accomodate an under counter washer/dryer........it won't fit on the port side galley, my main bunk is on the centerline and has equal access on both sides. The tan dash was an extra cost option and was offered because initial concerns were that the white dash reflects too much light. We have the white dash and its not a problem.
My analogy comparing the 300 hp and the 350 hp Cats is the same as the difference between the 350 hp 3116's and the 420 hp 3126's. The only place you would ever feel the difference is above normal cruise speeds and I personally wouldn't turn around for the difference in the 2.
More later........as you ask questions!
- Oct 6, 2006
- 12,155
- Boat Info
- 1996 450DA
- Engines
- 3116 Caterpillars
The maple interior is a cold seller and is normally a hard sell because the cherry is a lot warmer looking and nautical feeling. If you buy a maple interior you need to love the boat because you are probably going to own it a long time.
Go back and re-read the Caterpillar discussions concerning the valve problems because both of the 450's are subject to that issue.
Engine with that much time on them should have a blow by test done on them......a lot can happen in use, abuse and neglect in 1000 hours and a blow by test will tell the story on wear. This is only part of a Cat technicians bag of tricks....spend the money and do everything.
Where are the boats located?
Don't get he cart before the horse in negotiating. It is a waste of time to negotiate on more than one boat at a time. It not like buying Chevrolets...pick the best and right boat for you then develop a negotiating strategy and negotiate a deal that suits you......if you cannot, then go to boat number 2 on the list.
And, look at the PM I sent you..............
Go back and re-read the Caterpillar discussions concerning the valve problems because both of the 450's are subject to that issue.
Engine with that much time on them should have a blow by test done on them......a lot can happen in use, abuse and neglect in 1000 hours and a blow by test will tell the story on wear. This is only part of a Cat technicians bag of tricks....spend the money and do everything.
Where are the boats located?
Don't get he cart before the horse in negotiating. It is a waste of time to negotiate on more than one boat at a time. It not like buying Chevrolets...pick the best and right boat for you then develop a negotiating strategy and negotiate a deal that suits you......if you cannot, then go to boat number 2 on the list.
And, look at the PM I sent you..............
FrankW we thank you so much for your advice. Will defintely do it the FrankW way. Already told broker 2nd survey(CAT AUTHO DEALER) will be done and will spend what it takes for us to be comfortable with the engine, generator,hull etc... Will stick with 1st boat for negotiations. I hope this boat(450) will do us awhile. The maple is what the Admiral really likes(enuff said). The boat is located in South Florida. Frank I think low 170's is approptiate? What do you think? JC What exactly is Blow by test?
- Oct 6, 2006
- 12,155
- Boat Info
- 1996 450DA
- Engines
- 3116 Caterpillars
If the boat is in South Florida, be careful you are not buying a Bahamas Runner that someone has run hard and not kept up the cosmetics and mechanical maintenance. The first indication is high engine time for a pleasure boat, the next is the absence of service records and a maintenance log. Many folks buy a low time used boat in South Fla, then run it to the Bahamas for a couple of years and dump it. Its a 90-110 mile, or a 6-7 hour run, port to port, high rpms, then add South Fla sun and salt and maintenance short cuts and you have a recipe for a money pit in the future.
I'd look at the photos on the listing and the listing details for you if I know where the boat is and the broker's company. But before you post that information, this is why I sent you the Pm. If you post the boat specifics, the broker may begin to follow your posts. Its a small point, but I prefer to disclose as little as possible to a broker. In relationships with sales people and brokers I prefer to say very little and listen a lot.
As far as values, I can only give you some ball park information until I see the boat's listing. There are 2 450DA's in our marina, mine and one other. I know the other one well. It is a 1997 has about 450 hours on 3126's, has fresh canvas and a new camper top. The fiberglass is oxidized and the interior is below average to rough, but mechanically, the boat is very sound. It is for sale off and on and the last listed price for it was $229K and about $180K should buy it, but the boat does not show well. About $15K in cosmetics for a carpet and fiberglass attention would do wonders. My boat is just the opposite. It is waxed every 3-4 months, has fresh vinyl in the cockpit, the canvas is 2 years old, the interior is like new and the boat smells new. We have commercial grade electronics and redundant plotters, GPS units and VHF's. My boat is very close to a '10' and should bring in the $240K-$245K area, were she on the market. Generally, older big boats are not selling right now...add the maple interior and the high engine time and its really going to be a buyers market. I'll tell you more after I look at the listing, but generally, buying one of the cheapest listed boats out there is usually only the beginning.
Something you may not have noticed is the Formica interior. Vitricore was added to the 450 sometime in about mid 1998, so there are some 1996's, 1997's and a few 1998's out there with a 3rd interior. The Formica cabinet faces are a neutral light tan color and make the boat seem brighter and more airy inside, plus they are ea lot easier to maintain and there were never any adherence problems like the Vitricore has. I wouldn't buy a 1995 which was the first year, but other than a few cosmetic changes and fabric colors, the 1996,97,98 and 1999 are all the same. The 1996 and most 1997's have the standard galley to port which gives you more seating and a full sized freezer and refrigerator ....2 different units..in the galley, and the forward bunk is on the centerline with access to both sides.
Caterpillar has a proprietary blow by test which checks the engines crankcase pressure under load. If you get cylinder wear, ring wear or or valves that leak when closed, the blow by test will show high readings. There is one instrument to hook up and it saves you doing expensive compression tests or bore scoping the engine. This test, plus oil sampling and some other simple diagnostic checks will give you a complete picture of the engines health in about a day........Compression checks etc, extent the engine survey to 2-3 days since you will have to reset the engine overheads after they are done.
I'd look at the photos on the listing and the listing details for you if I know where the boat is and the broker's company. But before you post that information, this is why I sent you the Pm. If you post the boat specifics, the broker may begin to follow your posts. Its a small point, but I prefer to disclose as little as possible to a broker. In relationships with sales people and brokers I prefer to say very little and listen a lot.
As far as values, I can only give you some ball park information until I see the boat's listing. There are 2 450DA's in our marina, mine and one other. I know the other one well. It is a 1997 has about 450 hours on 3126's, has fresh canvas and a new camper top. The fiberglass is oxidized and the interior is below average to rough, but mechanically, the boat is very sound. It is for sale off and on and the last listed price for it was $229K and about $180K should buy it, but the boat does not show well. About $15K in cosmetics for a carpet and fiberglass attention would do wonders. My boat is just the opposite. It is waxed every 3-4 months, has fresh vinyl in the cockpit, the canvas is 2 years old, the interior is like new and the boat smells new. We have commercial grade electronics and redundant plotters, GPS units and VHF's. My boat is very close to a '10' and should bring in the $240K-$245K area, were she on the market. Generally, older big boats are not selling right now...add the maple interior and the high engine time and its really going to be a buyers market. I'll tell you more after I look at the listing, but generally, buying one of the cheapest listed boats out there is usually only the beginning.
Something you may not have noticed is the Formica interior. Vitricore was added to the 450 sometime in about mid 1998, so there are some 1996's, 1997's and a few 1998's out there with a 3rd interior. The Formica cabinet faces are a neutral light tan color and make the boat seem brighter and more airy inside, plus they are ea lot easier to maintain and there were never any adherence problems like the Vitricore has. I wouldn't buy a 1995 which was the first year, but other than a few cosmetic changes and fabric colors, the 1996,97,98 and 1999 are all the same. The 1996 and most 1997's have the standard galley to port which gives you more seating and a full sized freezer and refrigerator ....2 different units..in the galley, and the forward bunk is on the centerline with access to both sides.
Caterpillar has a proprietary blow by test which checks the engines crankcase pressure under load. If you get cylinder wear, ring wear or or valves that leak when closed, the blow by test will show high readings. There is one instrument to hook up and it saves you doing expensive compression tests or bore scoping the engine. This test, plus oil sampling and some other simple diagnostic checks will give you a complete picture of the engines health in about a day........Compression checks etc, extent the engine survey to 2-3 days since you will have to reset the engine overheads after they are done.
- Oct 6, 2006
- 12,155
- Boat Info
- 1996 450DA
- Engines
- 3116 Caterpillars
You are welcome.................I love spending OPM!
osd9
New Member
fwebster said:
I can vouch for that.....However....when Frank W spends "your money", he treats it like his own....and helps you spend it wisely....
will you guys please stop with all this.
I have been wanting to trade down for a fishing boat for most of the past year. After reading all of this, I have visions of making Key West on less than a tank. Also, visions of the middle grounds (70 miles out, where the big fish live), which is a little risky given my range right now.
I've talked more with my wife about the boat in the last week than I have in the last 6 months. Usually, it's "are you still looking for fishing boats". Over the past week, it's been "if it's diesel, and it's bigger, it's worth looking into".
Thanks a whole lot. I can't even sleep anymore.
I have been wanting to trade down for a fishing boat for most of the past year. After reading all of this, I have visions of making Key West on less than a tank. Also, visions of the middle grounds (70 miles out, where the big fish live), which is a little risky given my range right now.
I've talked more with my wife about the boat in the last week than I have in the last 6 months. Usually, it's "are you still looking for fishing boats". Over the past week, it's been "if it's diesel, and it's bigger, it's worth looking into".
Thanks a whole lot. I can't even sleep anymore.
Alex D
Active Member
Looking at the 98 and 99 style interior of the 450 you are getting a really sizeable galley, but the salon seating is rather slim and right at the bottom of the companionway. I think it is really way too little for a boat this size. All things considered, I feel that the arlier desing of the 450 is actually better.
Thanks Again Frank! Alex you maybe right but I say but i say, the ADMIRAL likes the 98 with its galley & washer/dryer. Enuff said!
YLWJACKET i truly feel your pain. I can hear those diesels coming, coming down the tracks- well you get the picture. A BIG THANKS TO ALL OF YOU WHO ARE HELPING THIS OLE COUNTRY BOY MOVE UP!!! JC
YLWJACKET i truly feel your pain. I can hear those diesels coming, coming down the tracks- well you get the picture. A BIG THANKS TO ALL OF YOU WHO ARE HELPING THIS OLE COUNTRY BOY MOVE UP!!! JC
Alex D
Active Member
JC it certainly is a matter of taste!! I too did like the late interior layout better. Love that large galley! But when I walked on one, the really smallish dinette seating and on top of that right at the bottom of the steps was a deal breaker because we spend almost every weekend during spring/summer on the boat from Friday evening until Sunday night. If you are just a day boater, it might now be an issue.
osd9
New Member
JC:
Hope all goes well today.....
Salon to port must be a mid 40's thing with Sea Ray (the current 42/44DA is salon to port), and it's a personal like/dislike thing.....but a Happy Admiral.....that's ALWAYS a good thing.. :thumbsup: ..looking forward to your trip report.....
Hope all goes well today.....
Salon to port must be a mid 40's thing with Sea Ray (the current 42/44DA is salon to port), and it's a personal like/dislike thing.....but a Happy Admiral.....that's ALWAYS a good thing.. :thumbsup: ..looking forward to your trip report.....
Alex D
Active Member
JC3 said:
Good luck !!! :thumbsup: Looking forward to hear how it went...
Dancin Dave
Active Member
JC3 Good luck with your trip and search. You are definetily doing it the right way. Looking at many and traveling as necessary not just in your back yard. I love my 450 and you are looking at the right model. Lots of boat for the money, a true value. obviously you are under good direction by Frank W as I was, he was instrumental in my purchase. I would stress the 96, 97 set up, you may not be happy with the galley to starboard as on the 98,99. you probably would pay more money just because of the year, despite the undesireability of the salon setup.Which could cost you if you want to sell the boat.anyway I see the 450 becoming a very hot and sought after model. The seating to port on this boat (for me anyway with the kids) would be intrusive.I think the washer and dryer is a waste and the 96,97 has a better fridge and freezer(huge) any questions just ask!
Good luck and have fun
Oh i'm on mine right now in Hilton Head, I'll be here for 5 more days stop in for a ride if your passing thru.
Dave
Good luck and have fun
Oh i'm on mine right now in Hilton Head, I'll be here for 5 more days stop in for a ride if your passing thru.
Dave
Thanks Guys for all the encouragement. Iam worn out. Looked at a 1997 40DA today. Have (2) 450DA'S to look at THURSDAY. When we got here the seller & broker lowered the price even further. Per everyones advice we are going to try and look at 96 & 97 while we are here. Got 3 more days to find IT. Thanks again and again for your help. Dave and Alex will let you know what Admiral thinks. JC IN THE SUNSHINE STATE :smt043
