Shower sump failure

[CJ Martin]

Got to the boat early Saturday morning intending to fiddle with the genset (see other thread). As I walk up the dock I hear the beep-beep of someones alarm. Hmmm, seems to get louder as I get to our boat. OH CRAP IT IS OUR BOAT!

A quick check of the Sea Ray monitor (source of the alarm) reads Foward Emergency - WTH?

I get down below and open up the shower sump bilge. The Forward Emergency pump is located aft of the shower sump box. I had just replaced the switch on the emergency pump as it was sticking constantly on the way too/from BiH...turns out the old switch was bad. There is never water in there.

Until now.

There is water , but not very much. There is no check valve in the drain line, and as a result the pump is constantly cycling - it runs, sucks all the water out, then shuts down and all the water runs back in from the drain. I get the wet/dry vac out and suck up the water. It's less than 2 gallons. So where the heck did it come from? The "taste test" reveals its is fresh water. Hmmm...

I pop the cover off the shower sump and it is full to the top with water. Pump is not running. I fiddle with the switch and get the pump to come on...and it doesn't drain the box. It also sounds like crap. Remembering the shower sump fire thread, I decide it is time to replace the whole mess.

West Marine has the exact sump in stock so I pick one up along with a check valve, a couple of hose clamps and a few shink/splices. Three hose clamps, four screws, and three wire splices and it is done. While the old one was out I cut the check valve into the emergency drain line. All done, but by this time it was lunchtime and the wife wanted to go out. The genset would have to wait.

Why didn't I just replace the pump and switch in the sump box? It would have been cheaper, true, but it would have been a lot more work. Rule has changed the design of their float switches slightly. They are a bit longer and wider, and the mounting screws will not line up. I would have had to remount the new switch and possibly reposition the (new) pump to make it work. My weekend time is worth more than what little savings this would have taken. As it was, the wife and I were still able to go out and enjoy a great (if blazing hot) day on the water. And that's why we boat.

-CJ

 

[capz]

Funny I had exact problem upon arriving at the boat yesterday. Same alarm and sump was full. Pump didn't work at all. So I cut and spliced the wires to the switch. Then it would work intermittently.
I think I'll replace just the pump and float. Whether or not you replace the pump or the whole box, it's still four splices, correct?. Tough part is getting both arms in the small area under the stair. I really don't want to mess around with taking that out.

 

[goblue]

Keeping these sumps clean prevents float switche failures. Hair and soap scum are two things that create problems. I pour bilge cleaner down the shower drain once a week to keep the grey water sea chest fresh. And, I have a supply of small fiberglass window screens cut to size that are installed underneath the shower drain. I unscrew the floor drain cap, drop the screen in and replace the cap. The fine screen keeps the hair out of the sump.

 

[CJ Martin]

goblue - The float switch in the sump had some sort of internal failure. The float would still move up and down, and in fact was alll the way up when I popped the cover on the sump. A tap on the switch and the pump came on.

capz - yes it is three wires on the boat side, but four wires from the pump & switch. Study the existing wiring before you start cutting. Two of the wires get tied together. If you have one of the older switches, the new switch will not be a drop in. The older switches used mercury and have a warning label on them to dispose of them properly. The new switch does not use mercury and has a larger float with redesigned hinge points. The little test knob on the old switch is gone, replaced by a lever on the back that does the same thing. If you keep your old sump box you will need to seal one or both of the screw holes for the switch and reposition it within the box as the new switch is slightly larger than the old one.

-CJ

 

[Fred]

Amazing, mine craped out today as well. Exact same scenario as CJ. I'm contemplating using an electronic switch (no moving parts) because I always had trouble with the float switch sticking on.

 

[Bridog]

Amazing, mine craped out today as well. Exact same scenario as CJ. I'm contemplating using an electronic switch (no moving parts) because I always had trouble with the float switch sticking on.

Mine has also become a problem. Turns on and stays on with no sign of water.

 

[capz]

CJ, I put the new switch and pump in the old box. You were right on. The switch is larger so the strainer stops it from raising. I didn't want to compromise the old box by making new screw holes, so I cut a portion out of the strainer and taped it up. Good for now. Next season I'll just get the kit and save the old pump and float as a spare.
I wonder if you can tell me if the new kit design is larger to accomadate the larger float switch. Reason I ask is I had a hell of a time squeezing the old box out of that bilge area. I don't think a larger one will fit. Thanks for the info.

 

[osd9]

Having had the pleasure of just replacing "TWO" of these units, I can tell you that the outside dimensions of the new vs old boxes are the same. Two differences, other than the the float switch itself, are: Extra set of mounting pads on the bottom inside of the box to facilitate the new float switch footprint, and the new box only has mounting pads on two of the outside bottom corners whereas the old box had mounting pads on all four outside bottom corners.

I haven't yet put the "blob" of silicone over the cut out where the wires exit the box. Have you guys added silicone in there yet and what technique did you use?

Also, with regard to wiring, the new pump and float assembly comes with two wires prepped to be "barrel" connected. I had to also cut the wires that were already "barrel" connected so that I could add a third wire in that loop. That third wire is the wire which goes to the systems monitor to let the module know when the pump/float are activiated.

 

[capz]

I didn't seal that hole at all. I used heat-shrinkable splices and positioned the wires a few inches above the box. I'm not too happy that I only have one screw holding down the float. It will move from side to side with some force and I'm sure it will loosen up over time.
On the new unit, if the float is larger and the box is the same size, how did they position the float in the new design? Is the strainer the same length?
Also, has anyone ever taken the shower drain line out completely to clean it? I'd like to start fresh with clean lines.

 

[osd9]

capz:

I plan to silicone the hole where the wires exit and here is my reasoning. There will always be some water left in the sump box. Generally, that water isn't going to be the nicest looking or smelling water either. When you go out with the boat pounding a few waves, that water will slosh out of the sump box, through that opening, and into your cabin's bilge area. Over time, that small residual of water in the bilge of your cabin will fester and grow all kinds of stuff.....just look inside the box to see what I'm talking about. It's good that you shrink wrapped the wires to avoid water getting onto them, but stopping the water in it's track, IMHO, would be the step you really need to do.

As for the new float, as I stated above, there is an extra "pad" on the inside bottom of the new box for the second screw of the new float. The new box will accept the old float, but the old box will not accept the new float. Also, as you are already aware, the mounting pads of the new float itself are different than the old in that one pad is a "through" hole and the other pad is a "slotted" hole. It does fit under the strainer, but it is a tight fit.

I'll try and remember to take some pics and post....until then, I hope this helps.

 

[capz]

Thanks for the help. You don't have to bother taking pics. Rule changing the design is a real headache. I see no reasoning for it other than to get people to buy the newer kit. I really doubt the newer floats will last any longer.
I see your reasoning for sealing the hole. Mine wasn't sealed from the factory. Though I can't be sure the first owner didn't have it changed out. Either way I plan on doing bi-weekly maintenance on the lines and sump after getting up close and personal with a neglected, stinky, gunked up system.

 

[CJ Martin]

The old design switch isn't so great - I've had two crap out so far. My plan is to replace the other two original switches with the new design (assuming I can get to them) during layup this winter.
Hopefully the new design is an improvement.

-CJ

 

[skolbe]

Mine had already failed - at delivery - I had them install a different brand and gelcoat the old holes. Mine is an 07 - I use Raritan CP to help keep the float clean.

 

[boatmailster]

Thanks for the help. You don't have to bother taking pics. Rule changing the design is a real headache. I see no reasoning for it other than to get people to buy the newer kit. I really doubt the newer floats will last any longer.
I see your reasoning for sealing the hole. Mine wasn't sealed from the factory. Though I can't be sure the first owner didn't have it changed out. Either way I plan on doing bi-weekly maintenance on the lines and sump after getting up close and personal with a neglected, stinky, gunked up system.

if Rule wants to sell their products on european market it must be mercury free

 

[capz]

"f Rule wants to sell their products on european market it must be mercury free"

but how does that change the buoyancy of a float 1/2'' shorter? You see this scenario all the time. Believe me, five years from now, the switch will again be redesigned so you cannot just drop it in the box sold on the market today. Makes sense from the company's view. They have to justify their R&D spending.

Yeah yeah I know what you're thinking and I just want you to know I do believe Oswald acted alone :grin:

 

[boatmailster]

"f Rule wants to sell their products on european market it must be mercury free"

but how does that change the buoyancy of a float 1/2'' shorter? You see this scenario all the time. Believe me, five years from now, the switch will again be redesigned so you cannot just drop it in the box sold on the market today. Makes sense from the company's view. They have to justify their R&D spending.

Yeah yeah I know what you're thinking and I just want you to know I do believe Oswald acted alone :grin:

i know it will be changed soon when they realize how much money warranty cost them
i didn't open new style one yet but i expect that there is micro switch instead few drops of mercury closing electrical circuit

 

[Sea Breeze]

Love my 260DA, but I had a similar situation and Sea Ray would not fix under my "premier" warranty. The Emergency pump near the shower box under the step would not drain water. As a result, water backed up into the cabin -- carpet all wet. Then when I manually turned on the pump float switch the water would suck out.....but not overboard......it would go up into the lines and when I let go of the switch.....the water comes rushing back in,

I noticed that the shower drain pump line has a valve that keeps water from coming back in after it is pumped through the line. However, the line for the Emergency Pump does not have this.

I am new to this forum, great resource. Any suggestions as to what might be the problem??? Much appreciated.

Thanks.