Running with generator on?

Jack380AC said:
Just a note of caution. Everyone seems to be concerned about the genie itself but the real danger (if any) is to people on board. If carbon monixide is getting into your cabin and people are below the capatain at the helm will never know that they were having a roblem. The noise at the helm may be grater than you can hear from the cabin with the hatch closed. If you run with the genie on, please make sure eveyone knows to get out quickly if the alarm goes off. You do have working co detectors in every cabin, right?
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Rather than start a new thread on an old subject, I am starting this one up again.

I am confident I know about starting, exercising, using the blower, and using underway by reading multiple threads on the subject.

So the question is...its a real hot night out on the hook, you need to run the genny to keep cool...You keep the cabin door closed to hold in the cool air and keep CO out from either your genny or others you are rafted up with.

1. Is this safe to assume?

2. I have talked to others who run the Genny and AC for a few hours to cool down the cabin before bed, and then shut it down for the night. I have yet to spend a Hot Summers Night on my boat so I am not sure if this is practical. Admiral gonna have to stay comfortable.

3. How do you check your CO detectors? Mine are probably original and 10 years old now. Something I do not want to take a chance on if they need to be replaced.

Thanks for any input. Want to keep it safe.
 
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1 - No

2 - Not practical enough for us

3 - I've read to replace them every 3 years.

Many say not to run a gas genny at night while you sleep. That being said, we do it frequently. We leave the blowers on. We have 3 CO detectors with 3 different power sources. They are LOUD! Your genny could affect others in the area. Other people's genny could affect you. Run some trials during the day with the cabin door closed and you outside. Utilize battery operated CO detectors with digital readouts so you know the affects of your system (this is how you test it). Be advised, you can never be too safe.
 
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John-

are you saying no to #1 and assuming all CO dectors are working fine? Is it not best to keep the cabin door closed to prevent CO from entering the cabin from external sources?

I understand that CO will always sink to the lowest level, and the cabin would likely be the lowest level on a boat of my type anyway.
 
I just meant it wasn't safe to assume anything with regard to keeping the CO out of the cabin. I would definately test the system as described above, use multiple types of CO detectors, and never consider it a completely safe operation.
 
thanks, seems like the detectors with the level readings in the PPM is the way to test.

Going to go search for a 9V version of this now.
 
Anybody use one of these? A little pricey but easily portable and lools like a great readout.

Probably much less than flowers for someones funeral. Unless someone here has one and is negative about it, I am going to get one.

I first saw it on the USCG site and it was one of the few that had a digital level readout.

http://www.detectcarbonmonoxide.com/order.html
 
Uplate said:
Rather than start a new thread on an old subject, I am starting this one up again.

I am confident I know about starting, exercising, using the blower, and using underway by reading multiple threads on the subject.

So the question is...its a real hot night out on the hook, you need to run the genny to keep cool...You keep the cabin door closed to hold in the cool air and keep CO out from either your genny or others you are rafted up with.

1. Is this safe to assume?

2. I have talked to others who run the Genny and AC for a few hours to cool down the cabin before bed, and then shut it down for the night. I have yet to spend a Hot Summers Night on my boat so I am not sure if this is practical. Admiral gonna have to stay comfortable.

3. How do you check your CO detectors? Mine are probably original and 10 years old now. Something I do not want to take a chance on if they need to be replaced.

Thanks for any input. Want to keep it safe.
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Mike, Regardless which ever way you do it, door open, door closed, CO detector or multipal CO's, I do what you want to do all the time with my gen set, the difference, I do not go to sleep and leave the Gen set running. I professionally install Smokes and CO's, I've seen my share of deffective units, I don't trust them in a Marine enviroment, regardless what they say. Who knows when yours can malfunction? Food for thought. Usually cools down at night, open them hatches. Keep Safe! :smt038
 
You can't trust one single type of technology. That is you can't put all of your eggs in the CO detector basket no matter how many you have. You need multiple layers. If you cannot achieve multiple, then either do without the A/C or dock and plug-in.

Some thing that you can consider. In coastal areas, there is almost always a breeze. Anchor the boat in a place where you can take advantage of those air currents which will carry the engine's exhaust away. That means don't anchor way back in a deep cove surrounded by dense trees. Use one anchor so that the boat swings as the wind shifts. etc. Don't anchor fore and aft so that they boat can't swing in the wind. If the wind shifts it might bring exhaust into the boat.

Inspect the exhaust system often. Make certain that every part of the system is in perfect condition. Replace anything questionable.

If you can ensure that the boat will be pointed into the wind, then bring some fresh air into the cabin from the bow. Ensure that changing tides won't swing the boat the wrong way.

Keep away from other boats so your exhaust gases don't affect them and theirs affect you. You can probably think of more. The more you do, the lower your risk. But when in doubt, tie up and plug in. It's usually the best solution.

Best regards,
Frank
 
I've got to say, this continues to be one of the most interesting and debated topics on this site. ...and the one my family and I have learned the most from.

This weekend, we were out at the boat getting settled into our new slip and doing a little "winter" maintenance which including checking the battery levels, bilge heater, etc..., and while in the slip, I was running the genset while the marina staff hooked up the proper electrical connections for shore power. I was "supervising" the electrician and my 11 year old daughter was below staying warm.

She comes running out of the boat after about 10 min screaming that the CO monitor was going off. She's AWARE b/c of what I've learned on this site. This was a really scary experience for me. Normally I have a procedure when we're on the hook which includes testing the factory installed CO monitor as well as the two other monitors which I have installed. While at the dock, I didn't go through my procedure, thus, relied solely on the factory monitor.

What's amazing, is that the boat's alarm system was going off after only 10 min! I know, there were mitigating circumstances - closed area, cabin sealed tight b/c of the cold, etc..., but, it happens quickly.

My only point, if you're going to run the genset at any time, make sure you have a procedure and check you monitors regularly. They could save your or, more importantly, YOUR kid's life.
 
I was flying my family in a 6-passenger airplane one day, level at 9000' between layers in smooth air. My 6-year old daugther, the only passenger awake, handed me a little box from the back. She said, "what's this thing that keeps beeping?" Turns out, it was a CO detector from the previous owner that was stuck in a seat-back pocket and we'd somehow never seen it before.

We turned off the heater (culprit), opened all the vents, and descended.

CO poisoning is scary stuff--Do not mess with it!
 
Reading this thread and the other generator related. makes one wonder about having camper canvas installed and being underway.

As far as I am aware of, there are no factory CO detectors in the cockpit/rear deck area. I do not have my full canvas up, but I am thinking about having a CO detector or two in these areas.
 
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Pseudomind said:
Reading this thread and the other generator related. it makes one wonder about having camper canvas installed and being underway.

As far as I am aware of, there are not factory CO detectors in the cockpit/rear deck area. I do not have my full canvas up, but I am thinking about having a CO detector or two in these areas.
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I do not have a camper, but have been considering it since buying my boat. I think someone here might have mentioned that Searay did not offer the option on some boats because of potential CO issues.

I am going to buy the pocket detector today. I think it can add another layer at night in the cabin, and also use as a cockpit monitor.

Perhaps it might also be used in the engine compartment to initially show a normal level as a base line. Checking this every so often might tell you if something in your exhaust system is going wrong.
 
Pseudomind said:
Reading this thread and the other generator related. makes one wonder about having camper canvas installed and being underway.

As far as I am aware of, there are no factory CO detectors in the cockpit/rear deck area. I do not have my full canvas up, but I am thinking about having a CO detector or two in these areas.
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There's been posts concerning this as well.... definately add 'em if you are using any canvas. I've watched our newly installed helm monitor the last few times we have gone out as this has been new to me (boating in cool weather with canvas) and it is amazing to watch the ppm climb! Opening the front vent takes care of it, but you have got to use your head.
 
Lewis,

Can you pls share the procedure you go thru in checking the monitor beforehand?
 
fc3 said:
You can't trust one single type of technology. That is you can't put all of your eggs in the CO detector basket no matter how many you have. You need multiple layers. If you cannot achieve multiple, then either do without the A/C or dock and plug-in.

Best regards,
Frank
Click to expand...

Multiple layers beyond multiple CO detectors? Now I'll never get to go boating. I've always considered good maintenance one layer, proper procedures another, blower on possibly another, and 3 CO detectors from 3 different power sources yet another. Are you suggesting that we can be overcome with CO fumes without any of the detectors going off?
 
DANGER: RANT FOLLOWS!


Ah crap. Layers of protection. SIL studies. Don't get me started regarding safety analysis. Suffice it to say, safety can very be much a statistical numbers game. It is very, very easy to say "I demand 100% Safety!". I see it all over this board.

The truth is to get beyond 99% safety is easy. Beyond 99.99% safety gets very, very hard. But given millions of boats, millions of flight hours, millions of industrial work hours. . .. 0.01% failure rates start to add up. So do 0.001% failure rates. And each incident is a headline. Lessons learned are broadcast on the news and distributed in emails using the BOLD FONTS.

I have worked in CO plants. That's right. . .chemical facilities that produces 99% pure CO as the money making product. We have gaseous CO compressed up to 1000psi in 12" pipes. You want hazard? These plants have a fair inventory of liquified CO. Try spilling liquid CO on the ground. Liquid CO is boils at some unholy temperature like -300F. First, the cold liquid will burn your skin. It will freeze CO2 out of the air. Then, as the CO warms, it boils off and becomes a really, really, cold cloud. This cold cloud will sink, freeze your skin and. . .is toxic at PPM levels.

The CO is often to make phosgene, which eventually shows up in the dashboards of your car, your plane and your boat. Phosgene is a chemical name for Mustard Gas, which was used as a chemical warfare agent in WWI. Yes. . there are CO detectors in these plants. Phosgene detectors are not uncommon if a phosgene plant is in the area.

The biggest hazard in a CO plant is. . . .are you ready for it? . . . .Nitrogen asphyixiation. Nitrogen is used to purge equipment . . .to get the CO out before you enter for maintenance. Nitrogen is hazardous because it displaces O2 in the air your breath. Air is 79% Nitrogen. Get it up to 84%. . and you have problems. Quickly.


- - - -

As I have reading these threads, it is quite clear to me that what the manufacturers have ignored is the fundamental problem: Boat cabins are poorly ventilated. This makes the situation intrinsically unsafe. Like putting a keorosene heater in your enginer room (as opposed to putting in a "bilge safe" heater which is intrinsically safe because it can't create sparks)

If you designed these cabins for a few air changes every hour, I bet this issue would simply go away. I bet mold issues and moisture issues would also go away. You could do that using small air vents at strategic points. Maybe back the vents up with small fans. But these vents are not cheap. We are talking fittings. . deck penetrations. . that is a cost both up front and in terms of ongoing maintenance.

So. . .given that people want 100% safety (not 99.999%). . and nobody has a cabin that is properly ventilated. . .then the obvious solution is to ban the source of CO; Throw the generators overboard!

But if you accept some risk (say. . 0.001% or 0.0001%) then you have layers of protection. The most important of which here is procedures. Procedures like: Don't ignore the CO detectors. Know the signs of CO poisening. Don't run generators at night. A second layer is the CO monitors themselves. It is an important layer. As others have said . .they are not infallible.

If you want to improve the value of this layer. .CO detection. .. then you need both redundacy and diversity. Yes. . the socialist pig said it. . . diversity. You want two detectors, so if one fails, the other works. But if you buy two of the same brand, at the same time, then there are seriously good odds that they will fail within days of each other. . .for the same reason (batteries. . or sensor) You want diversity. Buy one this year. Buy a second next year. Power one from the boat. Power one with batteries. etc. etc.

In terms of quantity. . you can go overboard. If you have one. . odds are that it is bust. If you have two. . and one goes off you don't know if it is a false alarm or not. If you have three. . and only one goes off. . . get the point? Going beyond three in one area is probably non-effective.

Ok Done with RANT. Sorry for the interruption. Let the flamming begin.
 
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Oh. . and I don't have a generator.

And I want to ventilate my cabin better.

If I did have a generator, or ran engines while moored, I would have three CO detectors. . and at least one would be "different" than the other two.
 
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