Remedial Econ for a college freshman

[tmhudson2]

While my 19 year old daughter is home from college, she's decided she wants me to teach her some basic economics and business principles, because she really can't understand why marxism-socialism is such a bad thing. I guess that's what comes from her going to school up east to study theater, but I am glad she's decided to initiate this conversation. Since I may not get a second chance like this, I don't want to screw it up.

I can do the basic supply-demand curve, elasticity-inelasticity, productivity and profits leading to rising wealth for all topics pretty well. But the best econ teachers I had were able to illustrate their points with real-world examples, and I hope some of you can help me with a few.

(I intend to include the letter from Gregory Knox posted by vetteboy in the Big 3 bailout thread as one lesson.)

She has worked at Disney World between high school and college, so some lessons of a well-run big business have hopefully sunk into her head.

Thanks for anything you can add to her education; Lord knows we don't need another actress spewing forth economic nonsense once she makes her first big hit....

 

[Southpaw II]

Both of my girls are grown, but their first real-world questions came when they were in high school and they got their first pay check from a part time job. Even though the payroll deductions for taxes were very small, they asked, "what is my money being used for?"......Republicans ever since.

 

[blueeyeboatr]

I am sure that there is ANOTHER site that cares about what you teach your kid(s)

Keep it to boating and or Sea Rays

Waste someone else"s time who care, or are you just bragging about what you know??

 

[vetteboy]

I am sure that there is ANOTHER site that cares about what you teach your kid(s)

Keep it to boating and or Sea Rays

Waste someone else"s time who care, or are you just bragging about what you know??

What part of holding tank is difficult for you to understand?:huh:

 

[mrsrobinson]

I can send you my 30+ Economics books from college as I was an Economics major. I just can't seem to throw these old things away!

 

[Daniel P Thomas]

I am sure that there is ANOTHER site that cares about what you teach your kid(s)

Keep it to boating and or Sea Rays

Waste someone else"s time who care, or are you just bragging about what you know??

Really
If you are such a Club Sea Ray guy, where is your signature and boat info?

What part of holding tank is difficult for you to understand?:huh:

Yes it is 'the holding tank'

 

[Larry&Leisa]

There had been some good andecdotes here before the election concerning spreading the wealth and redistribution. Maybe you can do a search and find a couple.

 

[Southpaw II]

I am sure that there is ANOTHER site that cares about what you teach your kid(s)

Keep it to boating and or Sea Rays

Waste someone else"s time who care, or are you just bragging about what you know??

Geee....sorry. We didn't know you're time was soooo valuable. Didn't you see the title to the link when you clicked on it?

 

[fc3]

Here's a nice 101 story.

A young woman was about to finish her first year of college. Like so many others her age, she considered herself to be a very liberal Democrat, and was very much in favor of the redistribution of wealth.
She was deeply ashamed that her father was a rather staunch Republican, a feeling she openly expressed. Based on the lectures that she had participated in, and the occasional chat with a professor, she felt that her father had for years harbored an evil, selfish desire to keep what he thought should be his.
One day she was challenging her father on his opposition to higher taxes on the rich and the addition of more government welfare programs. The self-professed objectivity proclaimed by her professors had to be the truth and she indicated so to her father. He responded by asking how she was doing in school.
Taken aback, she answered rather haughtily that she had a 4.0 GPA, and let him know that it was tough to maintain, insisting that she was taking a very difficult course load and was constantly studying, which left her no time to go out and party like other people she knew. She didn't even have time for a boyfriend, and didn't really have many college friends because she spent all her time studying.
Her father listened and then asked, "How is your friend Audrey doing ?" She replied, "Audrey is barely getting by. All she takes are easy classes, she never studies, and she barely has a 2.0 GPA. She is so popular on campus; college for her is a blast. She's always invited to all the parties, and lots of times she doesn't even show up for classes because she's too hung over."
Her wise father asked his daughter, "Why don't you go to the Dean's office and ask him to deduct a 1.0 off your GPA and give it to your friend who only has a 2.0. That way you will both have a 3.0 GPA and certainly that would be a fair and equal distribution of GPA."
The daughter, visibly shocked by her father's suggestion, angrily fired back, "That wouldn't be fair! I have worked really hard for my grades! I've invested a lot of time, and a lot of hard work! Audrey has done next to nothing toward her degree. She played while I worked my tail off!"

The father slowly smiled, winked and said gently, " Welcome to the Republican party."


And also there is this one. I believe Gary posted it before.

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for
all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes,
it would go something like this

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the
arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are
all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily
beer by $20."Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes
so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free.
But what abou t the other six men - the paying customers? How could they
divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?'

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that
from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end
up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would
be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he
proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 ( 22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four
continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men
began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He
pointed to the tenth man, "but he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a
dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!"

"That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10
back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't
get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine
sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill,
they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money
between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is
how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the
most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for
being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might
start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
Professor of Economics
University of Georgia

Best regards,
Frank

I am sure that there is ANOTHER site that cares about what you teach your kid(s)

Keep it to boating and or Sea Rays

Waste someone else"s time who care, or are you just bragging about what you know??

Well, I care. BTW, what great pearls of boating wisdom have you contributed to this forum? I can't remember anything from you other than some persistent whining. Please take your whining to another site where they care.

 

[Boatingnut]

Give her some homework on the topic. Ask her to find one example of a successful implementation of Marxism/Socialism, and then document why they have failed. It is the antithesis of human growth and development.

 

[jrirvine1]

Should the intention be to discuss socialism in an academic manner, then it follows that you need to look at examples of where it is successful. Sweden would be the contrast country for your daughter to study where it has become a workable system.

To simply conclude that capitalism is the only system countries should follow is as narrow minded as insisting that Jeffersonian Democracy is the only system of government that should be allowed by all nations.

 

[fc3]

Also, anything by Dinesh D'Souza. He writes mostly for a younger audience and about campus issues. Letters to a Young Conservative is a good book that explores the philosophy of conservatism.

Should the intention be to discuss socialism in an academic manner, then it follows that you need to look at examples of where it is successful. Sweden would be the contrast country for your daughter to study where it has become a workable system.

To simply conclude that capitalism is the only system countries should follow is as narrow minded as insisting that Jeffersonian Democracy is the only system of government that should be allowed by all nations.

Sorry, Jon. I don't buy it.

Sweden would pay dearly for these follies. According to the OECD, the country's per capita GDP ranking slid from fourth place in 1970 to 13th place today. Officially, unemployment hovers around 7-8 per cent but once all those on sick-leave, early retirement or otherwise subsisting on state aid are included, the figure balloons to around 17 per cent. Between 1995-2003, 11 of the EU-15 countries saw greater employment growth than Sweden. Youth unemployment is about 23 per cent, fifth highest in the EU.

In the early 1990s, though, market reforms were enacted that improved Sweden's economic performance. The telecom market was deregulated, marginal tax rates were cut, companies were allowed to provide private health care coverage and the pension system was reformed. As a result, between 1995 and 2004, average GDP growth per capita was 2.6 per cent. This compares to only 0.8% between 1985 and 1994.

See http://www.institute.sk/article.php?1131

And this is just plain scary.

Worst of all, the Swedes have not always acted benevolently, as reported on page A1 of the August 29, 1997, Washington Post,


From 1934 to 1974, 62,000 Swedes were sterilized as part of a national program grounded in the science of racial biology and carried out by officials who believed they were helping to build a progressive, enlightened welfare state...In some cases, couples judged to be inferior parents were sterilized, as were their children when they became teenagers.

As the Irish Times and Agence-France Presse reported on April 7, 1998, a Swedish Television documentary reveals that Sweden lobotomized perhaps 4500 "undesirables," in some cases without the consent of their families:


Some 500 lobotomies were conducted on patients who were not from mental hospitals...including a seven-year-old boy in Umeaa in northern Sweden in 1949. Diagnosed as "mentally retarded, hyperactive", he died during surgery."...One man featured in the documentary, who was lobotomised in 1963, is now 67 and has no concept of time, still believing that his children are small.

Don't forget to include that Nazi-esque behavior in the study!

Best regards,
Frank

 

[hack4alivin]

I am sure that there is ANOTHER site that cares about what you teach your kid(s)

Keep it to boating and or Sea Rays

Waste someone else"s time who care, or are you just bragging about what you know??

So you are really going to start this all over again aren’t you? :smt089:smt089

Well at least you learned how to spell boating correctly since the last time.

 

[comsnark]

. . . or are you just bragging about what you know??

Based upon what is being posted. . .nobody should be bragging about it. . .

 

[jrirvine1]

Frank, my point was that if our goal is to examine anything from a purely academic vantage point, rather than an emotional one, then we need to look at many examples. If you are saying that we should discount the study of all current socialist governments because they have problems, then that is just sad. One could easily dredge up scary reports and studies from our own history that would rival or put to pale what you have chosen to quote.

Sweden, with all of its problems, is considered to be the best modern example of how socialism has evolved and is a good contrast to capitalist based societies.

Nazi’s ?

 

[billandamy]

I am sure that there is ANOTHER site that cares about what you teach your kid(s)

Keep it to boating and or Sea Rays

Waste someone else"s time who care, or are you just bragging about what you know??

As usual...

 

[fc3]

Frank, my point was that if our goal is to examine anything from a purely academic vantage point, rather than an emotional one, then we need to look at many examples. If you are saying that we should discount the study of all current socialist governments because they have problems, then that is just sad. One could easily dredge up scary reports and studies from our own history that would rival or put to pale what you have chosen to quote.

Sweden, with all of its problems, is considered to be the best modern example of how socialism has evolved and is a good contrast to capitalist based societies.

Nazi’s ?

There is no pure academic view. Ethics of a system have to be viewed as well. I don't hold with those academics who claim otherwise.

What could one dredge up from U.S. history from the last 50 years that compares less favorably to forced sterilization, eugenics, and lobotomizing undesirables? Margaret Sanger of Planned Parenthood was a big supporter of eugenics before WW2, but that never got off the ground. That is, debatably never got off the ground. Planned Parenthood's methodology and abortion on demand, which Sweden also has, can arguably be a form of eugenics. The point of those references is that when government controls too much, as socialist governments do, it really does control too much and can (does) easily cross the line into evil.

The first reference indicates that the huzzahs for Swedish socialism might be overblown. I don't advocate ignoring it. Study it. Just don't be surprised to learn of another failure.

Best regards,
Frank C

 

[wish2fish]

Tell her you will give her $100
When it is time to give her the money only give her $50 and tell her you kept $50 for taxes.
Give her addittional chores to do around the house
take away amenities like tv, phone, etc
Give $50 to her siblings if any
Allow her siblings to sit around watching tv and playing games.

Ask her if she is happy with the system!

 

[jrirvine1]

Of course there is no pure academic view, this would imply an absolute and create an illogical and insurmountable hole in any argument.

Is 50 years the expiration date for government sponsored atrocities against its own people? We practiced forced sterilization and eugenics right here in the USA, as it was legal in 18 states for our “undesirables” and we all know the practice of forced lobotomy surgery was common place into the mid 1950’s. The point here being we evolved past this behavior as other societies also do.

Most will conclude that modern socialism (that is one without a brutal dictator that terrorizes the population) is marginally effective in small highly developed countries without diverse ethnic and religious cultures.

 

[tmhudson2]

When I started this thread, I didn't mean to get a political argument started. Rather I care deeply about my daughter and my son, their friends and the world they will inherit. I want them to be able to make economic decisions from a rational basis and not an emotional one. And I am not a good enough teacher of economics to do it alone.

Maybe by the time my son, now in the 8th grade, has a few more years on him I'll be better able to explain economics and business to him. I hope so...right now I'm the one being schooled.