Raymarine or Garmin

[kaz911]

Thank you for all the advice. I am really leaning towards the garmin just because how user friendly they seem to be. I do most of my boating in the north east and this year will be the first year Im attempting a week long voyage with the boat. I want something that i dont need a 10 inch thick manuel to figure it out. The simrad units are very expensive and I really dont need all those sonar attachments.

If you want Garmin - then wait until AFTER the Miami boat show. I think their new 4000/5000 replacement range will be announced there. The new 7x1 series has been announced for delivery in Q1.

Simrad is not more expensive than Garmin? $2500 for an 8" Touch MFD (NSS8) vs $3000 for a Garmin 5208?(Suggested Retail Prices) The big difference is Radar - where the Simrad 4G is "miles ahead" of Garmin 18/24HD for Navigation. And it is a radar that does not "fry" your internals over time. You can pick-up a NSS8 on eBay & online dealers like BOE for $1900-$2100 new.

Simrad Wi-Fi - $199 - Garmin Wi-Fi $199 - and Garmins is just... a cheap Ubiquity Accesspoint re branded with a few rules in it. Simrad's seems to be a "Real" Marine developed Wi-Fi accesspoint - with MANY more features that the Garmin.

To be honest - Garmin has been sleeping for a long time and things like their new "Access Point" makes me cry (as an electronics engineer). If you chose a cheap OEM product - then at LEAST make it "marine" quality - with conformal coating or better. Now it is an Access Point that will probably fail in 2-3 years in salt water environment. It is just a sign of Garmin has been "resting on their laurels and suddenly woke up - and makes panic decisions"

 

[tdschafer]

If you want Garmin - then wait until AFTER the Miami boat show. I think their new 4000/5000 replacement range will be announced there. The new 7x1 series has been announced for delivery in Q1.

Simrad is not more expensive than Garmin? $2500 for an 8" Touch MFD (NSS8) vs $3000 for a Garmin 5208?(Suggested Retail Prices) The big difference is Radar - where the Simrad 4G is "miles ahead" of Garmin 18/24HD for Navigation. And it is a radar that does not "fry" your internals over time. You can pick-up a NSS8 on eBay & online dealers like BOE for $1900-$2100 new.

Simrad Wi-Fi - $199 - Garmin Wi-Fi $199 - and Garmins is just... a cheap Ubiquity Accesspoint re branded with a few rules in it. Simrad's seems to be a "Real" Marine developed Wi-Fi accesspoint - with MANY more features that the Garmin.

To be honest - Garmin has been sleeping for a long time and things like their new "Access Point" makes me cry (as an electronics engineer). If you chose a cheap OEM product - then at LEAST make it "marine" quality - with conformal coating or better. Now it is an Access Point that will probably fail in 2-3 years in salt water environment. It is just a sign of Garmin has been "resting on their laurels and suddenly woke up - and makes panic decisions"

Kaz,

That was an informative comparison. I feel like i learned something from it. Good post.


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[bmac]

Joe, I have twin E-120's and can see tracklines and waypoints. You must be missing something in your set up. I'd be glad to take a look for you if you'd like. Have you given Sal Alfano a call for help?

If your going to the boat show Garmin might have their new line up out. I had a 4208 and loved it but the 4000-5000 series are outdated now, I have a ray e120 and hate it, you can't see track lines or waypoints. I use navionics on my Ipad and just got Garmins bluecharts mobile for Ipad and the detail is much better than navionics. I would love to get rid of my ray e120 its horrible to use underway I need touch screen with wifi to upload from home on another device then Bluetooth it to the chartplotter. Some opions to look for. Also look for IPhone, Ipad app compatible or droid etc. very handy

 

[trit21]

Some of you are talking about this new 4g radar (broadband) like it is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Well it is very good as I did own one and played with it for 2 years but let me shed some light on my observations. Broadband is a great radar for close in, under 1 Mile it is real good. Once of the selling points is you don't have to tune it to remove rain clutter. Which is true but IMO it is also the biggest downside to this type of radar. Here in FL we are always in rain storms. The most important factor sometimes is getting out of a thunderhead that is sitting over you. With broadband radar, you can't see the edges of the storm or any breaks inside the storm like you can with traditional radar. Yes, you can see objects but give me a break, at 2mph how can you not see objects directly in front of you. Long range on broadband is almost unusable as well. Just didn't show correct returns. Broadband is great from close in to about 10 miles, thats it. As a results, I switched back to a traditional radar unit and am much happier with it, even close in where they do work if you know how to use adjust, use and read them.

Oh yeah, and for those of you that say traditional radar will fry your brain, it is just not true. 2 ft away from a traditional radar unit and the radiation is very very small. Look it up on Google. We are not talking about the radar unit used on large ships or the military, these are small unit with very limited power.

 

[Havana Shamrock]

Joe, I have twin E-120's and can see tracklines and waypoints. You must be missing something in your set up. I'd be glad to take a look for you if you'd like. Have you given Sal Alfano a call for help?

Brian, the track lines and waypoints are very thin and small compared to my old Garmin 4208. Which the guidance route line was a thick purple line . The track line on my e120 is a thin lack line just like all the other lines on the chart I can't tell definitively which one is the route that's my main concern I then use my Ipad, question: I found out from Rusty Higgins that they gave my the worst cartography card with the boat if I upgrade to navionics gold,platinum will that make a difference?

 

[Alex F]

.....Yes, you can see objects but give me a break, at 2mph how can you not see objects directly in front of you....

Good posts, Tom. But, here are the two things that come quickly to mind to answer your question, a very thick fog and dark night, and dark night during heavy rain. The worst (visibility wise) condition I ever been was at night (I mean 12am-1am) during really heavy T-storm which was just never ending. This was as real as it gets time when I saw just a "black wall" when I looked out of the windshield. This was the first time I was using lightning to my benefit to see where I was going through the windshield. But, pretty much all navigation was done purely by radar and chartplotter.

Here's another good example for mid day conditions in a fog. The problem is not you being able to see 100'-300' in front of you. The problem is to spot all the idiots out there who don't know how to spell a radar and just fly by you. I personally was fortunate enough to avoid many collisions, b/c I was able to use my radar to see them coming and changed my course accordingly.

Brian, the track lines and waypoints are very thin and small compared to my old Garmin 4208. Which the guidance route line was a thick purple line . The track line on my e120 is a thin lack line just like all the other lines on the chart I can't tell definitively which one is the route that's my main concern I then use my Ipad, question: I found out from Rusty Higgins that they gave my the worst cartography card with the boat if I upgrade to navionics gold,platinum will that make a difference?

Joe,

The simple answer is, you will not see a difference between Gold and Platinum charts in regards to routes and way-points. I have both types. I suggest to borrow another card from someone near by you and give it test. I can give you another quick demo next time we meet, but obviously it's a lot easier to hook up with Brian. If you need my cards to test, let me know.

P.S.
Regarding the comparison. I always liked Garmin products and I'm sure I'd be happy if I had Garmin package on my boats. However, my 320DA was and 420DB is equipped with RM package with which I'm very much satisfied.

 

[trit21]

Alex, I totally agree and traditional radar work very very well for that without any problems since we both know how to adjust it for the conditions we are in. The problem I had with the broadband radar is there are very limited adjustments to be made as it is being marketed as work in all conditions straight out of the box. Which both you and I know means it doesn't work optimally for all conditions as there are limitations. My biggest problem with broadband radar was the lack of being able to spot rain in the distance due to the fact they filter that out/adjust it out whatever. Gain control on the unit did very little, at least my broadband anyway which was also made by Navico (parent company to Simrad among others). But, my traditional radar has much better gain control and adjustability so IMO it is more useful for ME. Of course, everyone is different but being 40-50 miles offshore FL fishing, sometimes you have no choice but to go straight thought the thunderstorm just to get back in to home port. IMO, traditional radar works much better for that.

 

[Alex F]

... The problem I had with the broadband radar is there are very limited adjustments to be made as it is being marketed as work in all conditions straight out of the box. Which both you and I know means it doesn't work optimally for all conditions as there are limitations....

This pretty much says it all. It sounds like we're totally on the same page, b/c I NEED manual control for the reasons you described above. If a unit lack full manual ability for adjustments, IMO at some point in time I'll just hate it and possibly won't trust it to navigate in poor visibility.

Anytime we're out at night I switch from AUTO to MANUAL and make my own adjustments (I guess you do similar). The results and representation on the display are very different.

As with anything, before buying one needs to know how the equipment will be used. We're all different, some folks like to depend on best configured AUTO mode and never touch anything else, some like to have full control. Considering to what category one belongs it could be a decision maker depending on what features (especially manual adjustments) one brand lacks vs. the other.

 

[trit21]

Agreed, I just wanted everyone to know my experiences since I had both units. It truly is dependent on usage and your experience level/expectations from the unit.

 

[bmac]

Joe, you can change the color of your route lines and you can change the appearance of the symbol for your way points. I don't think it matters which version of Navionics card you use for those attributes. I have a gold card if you'd like to try it.

Brian, the track lines and waypoints are very thin and small compared to my old Garmin 4208. Which the guidance route line was a thick purple line . The track line on my e120 is a thin lack line just like all the other lines on the chart I can't tell definitively which one is the route that's my main concern I then use my Ipad, question: I found out from Rusty Higgins that they gave my the worst cartography card with the boat if I upgrade to navionics gold,platinum will that make a difference?

 

[tdschafer]

This pretty much says it all. It sounds like we're totally on the same page, b/c I NEED manual control for the reasons you described above. If a unit lack full manual ability for adjustments, IMO at some point in time I'll just hate it and possibly won't trust it to navigate in poor visibility.

Anytime we're out at night I switch from AUTO to MANUAL and make my own adjustments (I guess you do similar). The results and representation on the display are very different.

As with anything, before buying one needs to know how the equipment will be used. We're all different, some folks like to depend on best configured AUTO mode and never touch anything else, some like to have full control. Considering to what category one belongs it could be a decision maker depending on what features (especially manual adjustments) one brand lacks vs. the other.

Or maybe some of us have no clue how to change settings and just rely on the auto modes!! LOL


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[Alex F]

Or maybe some of us have no clue how to change settings and just rely on the auto modes!! LOL...

It's just a matter of time, Todd. The more trips you take the more you'll be in different situations and the more you'd want to know what can you do better to make your voyage safer. Learning few extra things your radar can do with manual adjustments is one of them. I'm still learning myself, it's a pretty sophisticated piece of equipment.

By all means don't get me wrong, most brands will try to tune AUTO mode to do most of the work in all conditions and they do a decent job. It's when you want to get to the next level and make sure the radar doesn't miss a single object that can ruin your trip you need to take things in your hands.

My biggest incentive on getting to know radar functionality was the fact that we do a lot of night cruising. Whether it's the cruise to a restaurant for dinner, or whether we're getting back to the dock Sunday night or whatever the case might be (not to mention long trips) I've learned that radar is a must have equipment for the type of boating we do.

 

[Havana Shamrock]

I agree with Todd, I' not that comfortable messing around with my radar settings except for range, only because I don't know what I need or have. I' d really like to become more aware of my equipment (not to rely ) solely on it but know what I'm looking at.im good with the GPS, chartplotter but kinda lost with Radar.

 

[trit21]

The best way to get familiar with how the radar works and what all the settings do is to go out during the day and turn the radar on like you are in heavy fog. Go slow and try to ping off the markers in front of you, other boats around you, birds in the water in front etc. Make adjustments and see what effect they have and do this often. As Alex said, always learning new tricks and other functions. I have my radar on most of the time and continually adjust and play so it becomes second nature. Last thing you want to do is have to read your notes about how to adjust radar in the fog, rain, whatever. I really really is the most important piece of my navigation. If my radar is working, I can make it back even if the rest of the system is not working.

 

[Alex F]

Good points, Tom.

I know we went slightly off topic here, but it's a good and kind of a relevant info here. Here are few additional points:

1. According to the rules, a vessel should be using all navigational aids it's equipped with, including a radar. In the event of collision a caption who's vessel had working radar and wasn't used at the time of the collision might carry more blame, b/c if he had the radar on chances are he would be able to avoid the collision. This would most likely play a huge role in case if a collision was with some kind of an object or a physical structure, other than another vessel. Then, there's no one else to blame.
2. As Tom said, learning and understanding what radar is showing on display is the best during the day with good visibility, when you see everything and simply make references to the plotter and the radar screen. Just to elaborate on Tom's point, you don't have to go slow when the radar is on. It's just during the slow speed cruise you'll be able understand what the blimps on the screen are representing much easier. I would even suggest to turn the radar in the marina just to get basic understanding. It also a good idea to do it while anchored. Just make sure that people are not too close to the radar. Best time would be early in the morning while the crew is still asleep. Take your fresh cup of coffee and go to the helm for 30min or so. Get the manual out and turn on your MFD and radar. Once you get used to see the blimps either while the boat is not moving or moving at the slow speed, get on plane and see what happens to the picture. Most of the blimps of a moving object will slightly change their shape. This is where you'll learn the difference between a fixed object and a moving boat.
3. Not using your radar may even break it. I have an example when a friend who didn't use his radar ended up replacing it one day. This was an open array (4') which had some moisture get in the barring and simply failed to spin one day. Greasing it didn't solve the issue, so it had to be replaced.

Lastly, don't let the radar affect your cruising plans just b/c you're not used to using it. There's a time when we have a slot to learn things and there's a time just to relax and let the crew enjoy the boat. Simply turn the MFD and the radar and choose one of the screen modes that you're most comfortable with. What I mean is that (BTW, all of this is in the manual) you can either split the screen where half will be dedicated to the chart and the other half to the radar images. The other mode is OVERLAY, this is when you have full screen dedicated to the charts (most likely as some have it now) and then the radar image is literally overlayed on top of the chart showing all the objects in pink color (at least in RM units). I personally like the split screen b/c it's a lot easier to see bright yellow color object on the black background. So, turn things on, pick your screen mode, let the unit use all AUTO settings and go cruising while keeping an eye on the MFD learning what it's representing. Soon enough you'll get used to it and will appreciate the true aids the radar provides to your navigation. There are just countless scenarios when it can save you from trouble, even on a bright sunny day.

 

[kaz911]

Some of you are talking about this new 4g radar (broadband) like it is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Well it is very good as I did own one and played with it for 2 years but let me shed some light on my observations. Broadband is a great radar for close in, under 1 Mile it is real good. Once of the selling points is you don't have to tune it to remove rain clutter. Which is true but IMO it is also the biggest downside to this type of radar. Here in FL we are always in rain storms. The most important factor sometimes is getting out of a thunderhead that is sitting over you. With broadband radar, you can't see the edges of the storm or any breaks inside the storm like you can with traditional radar. Yes, you can see objects but give me a break, at 2mph how can you not see objects directly in front of you. Long range on broadband is almost unusable as well. Just didn't show correct returns. Broadband is great from close in to about 10 miles, thats it. As a results, I switched back to a traditional radar unit and am much happier with it, even close in where they do work if you know how to use adjust, use and read them.

Oh yeah, and for those of you that say traditional radar will fry your brain, it is just not true. 2 ft away from a traditional radar unit and the radiation is very very small. Look it up on Google. We are not talking about the radar unit used on large ships or the military, these are small unit with very limited power.

Minimum "safe" distance from most "non-broadband" recreational radars are 1-4 meters (so > 3' minimum). Larger (above 4kW) has considerably larger "safe zones". Safe general public safety distance is defined as where the signal is <= 10W/m2. And it might not fry your brain - but your eyes first.

My Radar would be about 1.2 meters from the steps up to the front deck. I as an electronics engineer - would NEVER EVER have anyone walk close by my radar if it was a Magnetron type.

And regarding 4G Radar - as I wrote - they are great for Navigation. They might not be great weather front finders for weather patterns - but they are for obstacle avoidance. If you played with broadband radar 2 years ago - I guess it was the Simrad BR - the first generation. Then came the 3G - and now the 4G. 4G has a lot better weather detection compared to BR and 3G. But still far from "normal" Magnetron radars. But for 90% of all recreational navigation use - the Navico/Simrad/Lowrance 4G radar is more than adequate. For Fishing and "real offshore" (50+ miles out) I would still go for a Magnetron based radar. But then I would shield of the radar arch to limit stray radiation - or I could wear a tin hat


Next time you go out - just bring a spectrum analyser with you and you will see just how big the pattern is from your radar. Then compare it with the signal strength you can capture from your WiFi or your Phone. The difference is huge!

 

[trit21]

Interesting article on radar exposure limits.

http://www.powerandmotoryacht.com/safety/hazardous-your-health

 

[Zach312]

Since we are discussing radar and I am not familar with it yet.

I am potentially going to be getting a Raymarine RD418D or RD424D. I do all of my boating on the upper Mississippi. Can some one help me understand the difference between digital and HD radar. How much is radar needed on the Rivers and do I need to spend the extra money for the 424 or HD.

Thanks!

 

[wetpaint]

I have always liked Raymarine, but I have selected all Garmin this time......

 

[sea paws]

which garmin did you go with? I like that auto guidance system that Garmin has.