Raymarine 210 ~ no DSC.

[Nehalennia]

Ok, The VHF I have aboard is a Raymarine 210. Doing some more research I see that it doesn't have DSC.

I had a Horizon VHF I really liked on the 230OV. It had DSC but I never did anything with it, and had a handheld GPS.

All of the MMSI, DSC is new to me, but if I understand correctly, with a GPS and a MMSI registration, you are able to see other DSC Compatible units on your GPS?

I haven't read much about it yet, but would really like to understand it completely

 

[Presentation]

All of the MMSI, DSC is new to me, but if I understand correctly, with a GPS and a MMSI registration, you are able to see other DSC Compatible units on your GPS?

I haven't read much about it yet, but would really like to understand it completely

Possible but most likely not. Most do not put a dot on your GPS screen.

AIS is really what is needed for this.

 

[Nehalennia]

Possible but most likely not. Most do not put a dot on your GPS screen.

AIS is really what is needed for this.

Thanks Doug,
I have heard about the AIS as well, but again haven't done enough research.
We need some more acronyms I think.
Since the radio works, It's a low priority for me to replace for now, unless there's a value that I don't understand.

Charger's on order and then the GPS is #1 and 2 on the to do list.

I would just like to understand this better.

 

[Presentation]

I would just like to understand this better.

Can you hear me?

http://www.boatus.com/foundation/dsc/player.html

 

[Presentation]

...with a GPS and a MMSI registration, you are able to see other DSC Compatible units on your GPS?

Some units do offer this.

You need the VHF radio and the GPS Chartplotter that are compatible and that both offer this feature.

Most do not put a dot on the GPS screen showing where you are. Instead you get the other persons Latitude and longitude on the screen of the radio in numbers. Then you manually type this into the GPS if you want to see where they are on the screen.

Some units will do this for you. Again, they must be compatible so if you are buying a new VHF radio and chartplotter and this is important to you make sure you check this out before you buy the equipment.

This technology is evolving.

I personally believe we are not far away from AIS being built into the VHF radio by law.


DSC operates on channel 70
Then there are radio classes;
Class A - about $800 can receive DSC even when sending or receiving. Common on ships.

Class D - about $200 two receivers - can not receive on 70 when transmitting.

SC101 – some under $100. Only 1 receiver. Can not receive on 70 when sending or receiving on any other channel. It can miss DCS calls. A budget friendly radio for pleasure craft.

 

[Nehalennia]

Can you hear me?

http://www.boatus.com/foundation/dsc/player.html

Thanks Doug

 

[fc3]

I posted on this topic quite a bit in the past. It's probably on the BOAT/US forums. I don't think it was on the now defunct SRO. What a waste that was! Anyway...

There are two things that you need. One is a DSC radio that supports:

• Position Report
• Position Send
• Position Ack

These are specified in RTSM SC 101 as the telecommand code/subcode 121/126.

Then you need a GPS that will plot the requested and sent DSC positions. These are sent via NMEA 0183 sentences DSC and DSE. I don't know the format for NMEA 2000. NMEA isn't freely publishing the data format for 2000 and I'm not spending a couple of grand to see the spec. It's a superset of CAN, so I might someday put a CAN scanner on a 2000 bus and see what's there. But since I don't have any NMEA 2000 stuff yet, that will have to wait for the next boat when I do all new electronics. Scanning CAN probably will be as much fun as using an IP monitor and doing IP packet inspection. Truly tedious!

The problem isn't that the spec is evolving. The problem is that the manufactures claim that no one is buying this technology. Of course, hardly anyone is selling it, either. I spoke to Raymarine about this a few years ago and they flat-out said that they saw no need to support position reporting. I've heard that the C and E series displays have some minimal level of support for this now. Garmin has better support. Supposedly some Garmin plotters will display the vessel's position with name (if available) or MMSI number. I think Northstar does the same. Standard Horizon also has units that support displaying position reports. The higher line Standard Horizon and Icom VHFs support position report/send.

The way this is supposed to work is that either someone else can bring up your MMSI number on their radio and hit position send. The position shows on your plotter. Or you can bring up the other boat's MMSI number and hit position send. The other boater's radio shows "ok to reply?" or something like that. If he hits "OK" you get his position.

This is really useful when a couple of boats are trying to travel together, especially in adverse conditions.

BTW, Raymarine VHFs are truly mediocre stuff. Every comparison I ever saw rated them, at best, as just average. If you need a new radio, don't consider anything other than Icom (first) and Standard Horizon (second).

Best regards,
Frank C.

 

[Nehalennia]

.............Garmin has better support. Supposedly some Garmin plotters will display the vessel's position with name (if available) or MMSI number. I think Northstar does the same. Standard Horizon also has units that support displaying position reports. The higher line Standard Horizon and Icom VHFs support position report/send.

The way this is supposed to work is that either someone else can bring up your MMSI number on their radio and hit position send. The position shows on your plotter. Or you can bring up the other boat's MMSI number and hit position send. The other boater's radio shows "ok to reply?" or something like that. If he hits "OK" you get his position.

This is really useful when a couple of boats are trying to travel together, especially in adverse conditions............
Best regards,
Frank C.

Thanks Frank, I plan on buying a Garmin 540s from Jim here pretty soon and I had the Horizon VHF that had DSC on it on Nehalennia II.
I really liked that radio and more than likely upgrade this Raymarine unit before the 2008 CSR/IBOATNW RENDEZVOUS ~ Jul 18th-Aug 3rd San Juan Island/BC Gulf Island/Desolation Sound
Because I know others have their MMSI, and I think that feature is great, if we can see other boaters in our group.

I'm more impressed with the safety aspect of it however.

 

[fc3]

Todd

Not every plotter, even every Garmin, supports displaying positions. Check with the vendor that it supports NMEA 0183 sentences DSC and DSE or the NMEA 2000 equivalent. The same goes with VHFs. While every DSC VHF does Distress position reporting, not every one supports Urgent, Safety, and Routine group calls. Make sure what you buy does what you want. Also, some older DSC radios only sent position to the nearest whole minute. So position could be up to roughly .5 nm off, even though your WAAS GPS is sending three decimals of data. The original ITU spec called for whole number precision. A later spec allowed sending full precision. Look for support of ITU M821 expansion.

My next boat won't have Raymarine electronics because of this flaw in their software. Probably Northstar plotters, now that they're not owned by Brunswick, Icom radios, and Simrad autopilot. Simrad has an autopilot that works with Volvo's IPS, so don't need Raymarine anymore. I'd consider Garmin, but I don't like their proprietary chart format.

Best regards,
Frank

 

[Nehalennia]

Todd

Not every plotter, even every Garmin, supports displaying positions. Check with the vendor that it supports NMEA 0183 sentences DSC and DSE or the NMEA 2000 equivalent. The same goes with VHFs. While every DSC VHF does Distress position reporting, not every one supports Urgent, Safety, and Routine group calls. Make sure what you buy does what you want. Also, some older DSC radios only sent position to the nearest whole minute. So position could be up to roughly .5 nm off, even though your WAAS GPS is sending three decimals of data. The original ITU spec called for whole number precision. A later spec allowed sending full precision. Look for support of ITU M821 expansion.

My next boat won't have Raymarine electronics because of this flaw in their software. Probably Northstar plotters, now that they're not owned by Brunswick, Icom radios, and Simrad autopilot. Simrad has an autopilot that works with Volvo's IPS, so don't need Raymarine anymore. I'd consider Garmin, but I don't like their proprietary chart format.

Best regards,
Frank

Frank, as always, you have a wealth of info. Most of the acronyms are way over my head as I haven't done the research, but that is great info for me to go research.
Thanks again...

 

[Presentation]

Frank,

Thank you.

Do you feel AIS will do this, umm, better?

 

[fc3]

They are fundamentally different. The DSC position request/send is a "Hey Todd, here I am! Where are you, Dave?" type of thing. AIS is an "Everyone shout out where you are!" system. Now, I have not seen the specs for AIS. Can't find them with Google. It's probably another "standards" where "you have to join (and pay) to see it." Which is just another way of saying closed, proprietary system for the syndicate. Whatever.

I don't think AIS is going to be widespread. It's going to be a bit pricey. Heck, you can't get a lot of guys with little boats to install a cheap-ass VHF. How you going to get them to install an AIS transceiver? So if you don't have one in everything, the utility of the system becomes increasingly marginal. I don't know the data bandwidth of the system either. But since it's VHF lets assume at best it's about 50Kbps, which would be pushing it. Consider a couple hundred recreational boater within a few miles of each other on a weekend and I don't see there being enough bandwidth to avoid a lot of broadcast collisions. The system needs to have several mile range, otherwise that go-fast that's doing 90 isn't going to show up until he's blowing past you.

I think AIS is fine for a handful of commercial vessels moving at the most 25ish knots in the channels. I don't think it's going to help where you have hundreds of boats going in random directions at speeds from 5 knots to 80. In other words, don't hold your breath for recreational AIS transceivers. Receivers to see the commercial boats, yes, transceivers for everyone, I strongly doubt it.

Best regards,
Frank

 

[Nehalennia]

They are fundamentally different. The DSC position request/send is a "Hey Todd, here I am! Where are you, Dave?" type of thing. AIS is an "Everyone shout out where you are!" system. Now, I have not seen the specs for AIS. Can't find them with Google. It's probably another "standards" where "you have to join (and pay) to see it." Which is just another way of saying closed, proprietary system for the syndicate. Whatever.

I don't think AIS is going to be widespread. It's going to be a bit pricey. Heck, you can't get a lot of guys with little boats to install a cheap-ass VHF. How you going to get them to install an AIS transceiver? So if you don't have one in everything, the utility of the system becomes increasingly marginal. I don't know the data bandwidth of the system either. But since it's VHF lets assume at best it's about 50Kbps, which would be pushing it. Consider a couple hundred recreational boater within a few miles of each other on a weekend and I don't see there being enough bandwidth to avoid a lot of broadcast collisions. The system needs to have several mile range, otherwise that go-fast that's doing 90 isn't going to show up until he's blowing past you.

I think AIS is fine for a handful of commercial vessels moving at the most 25ish knots in the channels. I don't think it's going to help where you have hundreds of boats going in random directions at speeds from 5 knots to 80. In other words, don't hold your breath for recreational AIS transceivers. Receivers to see the commercial boats, yes, transceivers for everyone, I strongly doubt it.

Best regards,
Frank

I wonder as DSC advances and more an more have it the the manufacturers develop some way to "PING" (for lack of a better term) your location somewhat like a degraded emergency signal. Since it is somewhat localized and digital, it can squelch anything past a certain range, allowing you to see any boaters in the area(with DSC and GPS) automatically.

I think as it sits now, it will be nice to see the ones you know their MMSI on the GPS.

 

[fc3]

I wonder as DSC advances and more an more have it the the manufacturers develop some way to "PING" (for lack of a better term) your location somewhat like a degraded emergency signal. Since it is somewhat localized and digital, it can squelch anything past a certain range, allowing you to see any boaters in the area(with DSC and GPS) automatically.

I think as it sits now, it will be nice to see the ones you know their MMSI on the GPS.

I don't think so. The ITU isn't doing much upgrading to the DSC spec. Squelch on the DSC channel (70) is automatic, so you can't tune out broadcasts that aren't close. Since the bandwidth is limited, I don't think they'll incorporate an "All position request" where every boat in the area will reply with a position.

Best regards,
Frank