Quick freeze plug question

[Mike HHH]

Long time lurker and occassional poster - I usually can't compete with the knowledge and expertice on this board. We are currently selling our latest Sea Ray (an 87 270 Sundancer). After having gone through way too much $$$ and effort satisfying the people buying our baby I just got a call from the broker saying a freeze plug "blew" on one of the 5.7 Merc Alpha 1's.
My question is this - what is a guesstimate for a reasonable amount of time for a mechanic to remove an exhhaust manifold on a GM/Mercruiser small block, replace a freeze plug and replace the manifold??
Setting aside the issue that I had already signed all the papers, their check has been sent to satisfy the lien and supposedly the boat had not moved or been run since the seat trial and a subsequent mechanic check-out, the estimate from the shop at the marina is 6 hours for this - this seems high to remove two hose clamps and a handful of bolts - am I getting taken for a ride??? -
thanks in advance
Mike H.....

 

[PlayDate]

It is a pain on your (former) boat. A couple things about this are raising the estimate. First, these things aren't freeze plugs. The are stamped steel or brass plugs that cover up where casting sand is removed from the block. From time to time they actually "pop" out before the block cracks from freezing which is why people refer to them as freeze plugs. More often than not they don't pop out and the block cracks.

In your case I'm betting that the plug has corroded and is leaking instead of popped. If it was popped, the quick fix would have been to remove it and install a rubber expandable plug in its place without pulling the manifold. Your marina is taking the safe bet that the plug needs to be replaced and that they need to remove the manifold to do it properly. That course also allows them to inspect the other plugs on that side and replace them if required for minimal charge.

Unfortunately, you are selling the boat so you don't have a lot of options. You can take some comfort that they have to stand behind the work when it is sold.

Sorry,

John

 

[Mike HHH]

Playdate:

Thank you for the thorough response. I guess I was a little dubious about the estimate because 1) the engine in question is a Merc remanufactured installed about four years ago and I thought it was a little unlikely that something would have rusted out so quickly and 2) I just learned that after paying about a grand to have a trim limit switch replaced, the broker (who told me everything was done correctly) now tells me the trim limit function still doesn't work - so I absolutely do not trust the mechanics. I also don't understand how, if it is a rusted plug leaking versus one that "popped", this wasn't caught in the surveyor sea trial last week.
One last, possibly dumb, question - is this something that can be done in the water or does it require a haul (the marine left the boat sitting in the water [not hooked up to shore power] now so the plug presumable is not lower than the waterline). thanks again
Mike H......

 

[PlayDate]

Playdate:

Thank you for the thorough response. I guess I was a little dubious about the estimate because 1) the engine in question is a Merc remanufactured installed about four years ago and I thought it was a little unlikely that something would have rusted out so quickly and 2) I just learned that after paying about a grand to have a trim limit switch replaced, the broker (who told me everything was done correctly) now tells me the trim limit function still doesn't work - so I absolutely do not trust the mechanics. I also don't understand how, if it is a rusted plug leaking versus one that "popped", this wasn't caught in the surveyor sea trial last week.
One last, possibly dumb, question - is this something that can be done in the water or does it require a haul (the marine left the boat sitting in the water [not hooked up to shore power] now so the plug presumable is not lower than the waterline). thanks again
Mike H......

Mike,

That's really frustrating. I'm starting to wonder if there is a problem with the plug at all. No worry about it sitting in the water. While the plug sits below the waterline, the water is not pressurized with the engine off. This is a job that can be done without a haul. BTW there are no dumb questions. With all the people who view these threads, I can assure you others are thinking the same thing.

What's up with the trim limit switch? That's a pretty straightforward repair that they need to stand behind.

-John

 

[Mike HHH]

John:
Thanks again - I'm relying on the brokers description of what's going on (although this seems like less and less of a problem I need to deal with in that ownership transferred earlier last week - I'm just trying to make everyone happy) and he said he thought the water leak from the freeze plug started while he was idling the engine at the dock while going through check-out of all the boat systems.
I understand what you said in terms of the estimate including time to thoroughly inspect other freeze plugs and allow for a complicated repair - but I am still really getting the feeling that the service dept have upped the estimate to fix this to cover their posterior on other issues. In addition to somehow crossing the trim limit switch with the trailer up button (The trim switch raises the OD all the way to the trailer position but the trailer up button activates the limit switch) their estimate for the freeze plug repair included hauling (not sure if it was short haul or haul and block) - now I learned today from the broker that the service dept would not give him an itemized list of the hours for each item they worked on and they were supposed to do something else when it was hauled for the new owner but they forgot or otherwise just didn't do it (so they still "owe" him a haul and repair).
It is a shame that the headache of finding a mechanic you really trust really makes the decision to have a boat - especially one with multiple complicated systems - really hard to enjoy.
We've used this marina (just down the road in Deale, however they changed ownership earlier this year) for several years and were always impressed and happy with their work/explanation/feedback and attitude. It seems like now they can't even work together with their own in- house broker.
Again, thank you for your knowledge and assistance - I am very appreciative of your help.
Mike H....

 

[PlayDate]

I'm sure your broker is just as frustrated. The good news seems that you are through the issues if the paperwork is signed. Unless there is some other contigency in your sale document for an escrow or warranty, they should give you a check and move on. The sales contract should be clear on this.


There are a lot of good marinas and mechanics out there. Unfortunately, this kind of experience reinforces a negative stereotype.

Glad to help,

John

 

[comsnark]

Hmmm. This all has a familiar ring to it.

I got a runaround like this for some work last year. I had a leaking manifold/riser joint after a manifold/riser replacement -> and I was billed for leaking freezeplugs. How's that for standing by your work? Aren't the freeze plugs on the BOTTOM of the engine?

I guess in this case, you are removing the manifold for ACCESS to the plugs? I guess you need a short block/haul because. . . .there is no room at the dock . . and more room in the yard??

I am also having a hard time understanding why you are paying for items discovered (1) after survey and (2) after sale.

I think it is time to find a new shop for servicing your NEXT boat.

 

[Mike HHH]

Thanks again for the help and guidance.

There were two reasons I offered to consider a contribution towards the freeze plug fix - #1 I remember how excited and happy my wife and I were when we bought it 10 years ago and how if, as were were leaving the dealer's dock for the trip home, we suddenly got hit with a several hundred repair bill it would have left a bad memory that probably always would have been the first thing we remembered about the boat. I figured a small contribution towards the repair would leave everyone smiling at the end of the transaction, and #2 ownership did change hands a couple of days before the new owners came to the marina to pick up the boat and take it home - but they were still in the process of having the broker explain everything and there could be an issue/question as to whether they accepted the boat (I believe with car sales the vehicle has to be driven off the lot before it is finalized) and there is no Maryland case law or statute that I could quickly find on this point and my considered nominal contribution would be less than an hour's time if I had to hire a lawyer.

I think in the end everyone will be happy (or at least not completely PO'ed) and I can continue to chew on the decision of whether to go with a couple year old 260/280, an older 330 (should just fit in our community marina slip) or switch to a plain-jane fishing boat that doesn't have all the systems (or amenities) to deal with.
thanks again - I really appreciate the assistance.
Mike H........

 

[PlayDate]

Thanks again for the help and guidance.

There were two reasons I offered to consider a contribution towards the freeze plug fix - #1 I remember how excited and happy my wife and I were when we bought it 10 years ago and how if, as were were leaving the dealer's dock for the trip home, we suddenly got hit with a several hundred repair bill it would have left a bad memory that probably always would have been the first thing we remembered about the boat. I figured a small contribution towards the repair would leave everyone smiling at the end of the transaction, and #2 ownership did change hands a couple of days before the new owners came to the marina to pick up the boat and take it home - but they were still in the process of having the broker explain everything and there could be an issue/question as to whether they accepted the boat (I believe with car sales the vehicle has to be driven off the lot before it is finalized) and there is no Maryland case law or statute that I could quickly find on this point and my considered nominal contribution would be less than an hour's time if I had to hire a lawyer.

I think in the end everyone will be happy (or at least not completely PO'ed) and I can continue to chew on the decision of whether to go with a couple year old 260/280, an older 330 (should just fit in our community marina slip) or switch to a plain-jane fishing boat that doesn't have all the systems (or amenities) to deal with.
thanks again - I really appreciate the assistance.
Mike H........

Mike,

You did the right thing by contributing. Not only was it an honorable thing to do .....you avoided a confrontation which would have left a lot of bad feelings all around.

-John