Yup, unfortunately I've been down that road too many times! But, if it was just a fuse that controls the fuel pump the engine would continue to crank. It wouldn't keep "trying" to work and then quit.
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Problem with my port engine in my 2003 340DA.............
- Thread starter rgl1100
- Start date
Yup, unfortunately I've been down that road too many times! But, if it was just a fuse that controls the fuel pump the engine would continue to crank. It wouldn't keep "trying" to work and then quit.
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rgl1100
Member
They're one unit.
Woody
Well-Known Member
rgl1100 said:
-The problem all started when I allowed the batteries to run down
-As soon as I crank the port engine the black toggle kicks off and the circuit breaker flips
-I went and switched the black toggle switches on the main panel. Fortunately (or unfortunately depending upon how you view it) the toggles are fine since the same tripping of the circuit occurs.
-I am able to crank the engine because I have it hooked up to shoreside external power at the moment
-However, I tried turning off shoreside power and attempting a crank of the port engine and it did crank very briefly until, once again, the curcuit breaker in the toggle switched to the "off" position.
-However, as I said, the engine cranks for a second or two until the toggle switch on the main panel inside the boat, next to the main key, trips. Then the cranking completely stops
You have said your engine turns over fine but it really doesn't. Your engine should turn over for many minutes, the breaker should not trip in seconds. You have an electrical problem and from your description I doubt it confined to the fuel pump.
-The problem all started when I allowed the batteries to run down
-As soon as I crank the port engine the black toggle kicks off and the circuit breaker flips
-I went and switched the black toggle switches on the main panel. Fortunately (or unfortunately depending upon how you view it) the toggles are fine since the same tripping of the circuit occurs.
-I am able to crank the engine because I have it hooked up to shoreside external power at the moment
-However, I tried turning off shoreside power and attempting a crank of the port engine and it did crank very briefly until, once again, the curcuit breaker in the toggle switched to the "off" position.
-However, as I said, the engine cranks for a second or two until the toggle switch on the main panel inside the boat, next to the main key, trips. Then the cranking completely stops
You have said your engine turns over fine but it really doesn't. Your engine should turn over for many minutes, the breaker should not trip in seconds. You have an electrical problem and from your description I doubt it confined to the fuel pump.
Woody
Well-Known Member
Here's an Owners Manual http://www.searay.com/boat_graphics/electronic_brochure/Company1729/1C1_23_74DEJAK1735.pdf
Is your dash and DC panel like those on pages 30 and 35? You turn on the keys, energize the main battery solenoids(prt & strbd) and then press the rockers switches in the dash to start? What trips or needs resetting? Have you checked the main battery solenoids themselves that are in the bilge. These are activated by the two switches in the cabin.
Is your dash and DC panel like those on pages 30 and 35? You turn on the keys, energize the main battery solenoids(prt & strbd) and then press the rockers switches in the dash to start? What trips or needs resetting? Have you checked the main battery solenoids themselves that are in the bilge. These are activated by the two switches in the cabin.
rgl1100
Member
Im sorry if I wasn't clear. I don't think I ever said that the port engine has turned over and run. It cranks but won't turn over. The starboard engine is fine. I have referred to this engine as running. The port engine cranks but, as I said, after just a few seconds the toggle switch on the main panel(inside the boat. Not the circuit on the main panel in the engine compartment) trips. The pictures in the schematics you sent are very similar to what I have but my boat is the newer style, the 340DA model that has just a slightly different dash console. They work the same way as you describe. However, the solenoids, I believe, are both working.
CV-23
Active Member
- Jun 25, 2010
- 1,891
- Boat Info
- 1990 270 Sundancer, 2003 Ford Excursion 4x4 Limited
- Engines
- 454 merCruiser w/Bravo 1
When connected to shore power, you say the engine cranks fine but does not start? The AC to DC converter will provide some additional cranking power but not for long. If the emergency start is not working to crank the non-starting motor, it's not a power source/supply/battery problem. Can't imagine a breaker tripping because of low voltage/amps. There has to be an electrical short to trip a breaker I would think. Either the fuel pump or the shutoff solenoid is bad on your one motor, Mike.
Woody
Well-Known Member
Ok, the newer 340DA Page 6.8
http://www.searay.com/boat_graphics/electronic_brochure/Company1729/1C1_23_74DEJAKSI6B.pdf
We have a semantics thing going on I think but commonly ‘turning over’ means the starter is turning the engine, it is not a reference to whether or not it fires or runs. The fact that it turns over such a short time and then trips breakers indicates excess current draw. Which one trips? You said it was by the key so it must be the actual breaker marked ‘port ignition’, correct?
http://www.searay.com/boat_graphics/electronic_brochure/Company1729/1C1_23_74DEJAKSI6B.pdf
We have a semantics thing going on I think but commonly ‘turning over’ means the starter is turning the engine, it is not a reference to whether or not it fires or runs. The fact that it turns over such a short time and then trips breakers indicates excess current draw. Which one trips? You said it was by the key so it must be the actual breaker marked ‘port ignition’, correct?
rgl1100
Member
That's exactly correct.
CV-23
Active Member
- Jun 25, 2010
- 1,891
- Boat Info
- 1990 270 Sundancer, 2003 Ford Excursion 4x4 Limited
- Engines
- 454 merCruiser w/Bravo 1
Could also be a bad starter and or starter selenoid grounding out, Mike.
I was starting to wonder about this, as well. Possibly even a loose or corroded starter wire. Easy enough to check, anyway.
RGL, just for clarification... the breaker pops almost immediately when on battery power. But, when you have teh charger on (shore power) it cranks a little longer before popping? Noticeably longer, or just barely?
Woody
Well-Known Member
I don't know what this one will turn out to be but I've seen alot of starters, batteries, solenoids changed when bad wires, poor connections, weak batteries, etc were really the problem.
rgl1100
Member
So I spent most of yesterday doing everything I could do myself to help try and figure this out. I find it so frustrating that I just don't have the know-how to try and diagnose this problem. From checking fuel pressure to leak down tests these things are just beyond me. However, since I have one engine working fine I decided to set out to see what I could do. The first thing I did was switch the batteries to see if it was a problem with power. Now I know some of you with a lot of knowledge will laugh at my trying many of these things I realize it's mostly just things I can try until the mechanic arrives. Anyway, I switched the batteries which was no small task and the same things happen. No alarms, toggle trips.............. As I mentioned yesterday I switched the toggle to insure it wasn't that. It wasn't. Next, I went to the dash and switched the starter toggle. It wasn't that. Next, into the engine. I started with the PCM. Switched the port PCM onto the starboard motor and the starboard engine ran fine. Interestingly, the guages on the PORT side of my console registered............they're obviously linked somehow. Next, I checked the 20A fuses that sit in a sealed compartment/holder that is next to the PCM. They were all fine. Finally, the mechanis shows up and I have everything back together. I explain everything that I've tried and he has this puzzled face which doesn't make me feel as though this is going to be fixed anytime soon. He disconnects the staring harness to check the switches from the console back to the engine and they're all fine. Next, and I could be wrong in what all this means since this is where I'm getting a bit lost, he disconnects the orange lead from the starter solenoid. This, he tells me is the lead that goes to the alternator. I "think" the toggle did NOT trip when he did this. Next, we unhooked the orange lead from the alternator itself. When he briefly placed the orange lead back on the starter solenoid once again with the alternator disconnected the toggle/circuit tripped again. Therefore, he explained that it wasn't the alternator. He did more, and I did get to hear the audible alarms once again as he was trying different things with his multimeter. He thinks he's narrowed it down consideribly but still it is not solved. I'm so frustrated because, as I said, this was the "go-to" engine this summer. It always worked flawlessly and started immediately. Oh, BTW, he checked the fuel valves and they yurned out to work fine. I'm still going and I appreciate everyones input.............
CV-23
Active Member
- Jun 25, 2010
- 1,891
- Boat Info
- 1990 270 Sundancer, 2003 Ford Excursion 4x4 Limited
- Engines
- 454 merCruiser w/Bravo 1
I would say the wire is grounding on the engine somewhere (pinched) or it's the starter/solenoid, Mike.
Absolutely not. Worst case scenario, you probably learned something by what you've done. At the bare minimum, you learned what to avoid doing in the future.
Good luck - and keep us posted.
rgl1100
Member
So.........things aren't great at the moment. The mechanic was tracing wires with the wiring diagram today. He didn't find the problem but does feel it lies somewhere in the relays. I wasn't there most of the time but he tried unplugging whatever he could from the harness and seeing if the circuit tripped. It did. He tried to explain something to me but I didn't quite understand what he was referring to. Honestly, I think he was pretty frustrated also. He was telling me that the circuit would not blow when partial voltage was applied but did blow when 12 volts was applied. I'm not sure if there's a 6 volt area on the harness. I just don't know. Anyway, the next step is to call in a mercruiser expert with a diagnostics computer. I'm pretty worried because I'm trying to keep this from getting out of control from a money standpoint. I don't want to break the bank on this and I am trying everything I know to help fix it. This is the aspect of boating I really hate. I'm trying not to lose perspective. This will get fixed I just know it.........
Sounds like what you have is an "electrical gremlin". And they are a real P.I.A. Also very hard to diagnose via a forum.
If you have Smartcraft, some things do run on 5v. If not, there still might be some things running on 5v -- related to the PCM (computer), anyways. But I'm not positive and that's outside my realm of expertise.
I think you've done everything you can and getting a Merc tech is probably the smartest choice. I'd probably do the same thing.
If you have Smartcraft, some things do run on 5v. If not, there still might be some things running on 5v -- related to the PCM (computer), anyways. But I'm not positive and that's outside my realm of expertise.
I think you've done everything you can and getting a Merc tech is probably the smartest choice. I'd probably do the same thing.
rgl1100
Member
I actually do have smartcraft in the boat and you bring up an interesting thought. Now, several times throughout the season I've had an "aft bilge" alarm that has gone off when I have manually pushed the "bilge" switch on the dash. I know it was wrong but I did not address it immediately because I have checked both the bilge floats valves and pumps in the engine compartment and they have both been fine. I also checked under the main floor and checked the midship pump which was fine. I did find that the shower and airconditioning sump pump was bad and replaced the entire unit. When this all happened I went down and made sure they were working correctly and they seemed fine. Regardless, lets just say for argument sake that there was a problem with the pumps. To my knowledge they wouldn't run on 5v anyway and I don't think they would affect just one engine if they were shorting. Am I thinking about this wrong?
sejensen737
Active Member
I'm thinking that it is no coincidence that your problem started when the batteries were run down.
A breaker tripping is a sign of large current draw. The question is where? Did you try to start that engine with the low batteries? If so , it is possible that the starter solenoid contacts were not able to close due to low battery voltage and instead arced across the contacts , effectivley burning the contacts which would result in much higher resistance which would cause your breaker to trip when the starter was engaged.
I'd remove the starter solenoid and check the contacts. Some de-soldering will probably be required. Another route would be to try the other engines starter on the nostart engine. A lot of work but it would eliminate the starter/starter solenoid possibility.
Good luck.
A breaker tripping is a sign of large current draw. The question is where? Did you try to start that engine with the low batteries? If so , it is possible that the starter solenoid contacts were not able to close due to low battery voltage and instead arced across the contacts , effectivley burning the contacts which would result in much higher resistance which would cause your breaker to trip when the starter was engaged.
I'd remove the starter solenoid and check the contacts. Some de-soldering will probably be required. Another route would be to try the other engines starter on the nostart engine. A lot of work but it would eliminate the starter/starter solenoid possibility.
Good luck.
rgl1100
Member
Amazing thought but I have a few questions before I start tearing into this situation. Although the engine starter doesn't even crank when I depress the starter toggle on the dash, it will crank when I use the emergency cross over. If there was high resistance at the starter solenoid would this respond like this? It's very interesting that my mechanic said that the toggle doesn't seem to trip with low voltage but when 12v is placed on it it trips. Could this be caused by a short across the starter solenoid? If there was a short wouldn't the starter not even work? This scenerio is very very interesting and sounds like a possibility but I really don't want to start dismantling both engines if it's a long shot. Is there any way to test the starter solenoid without swapping it out. Is there a way to test resistance across the solenoid itself? What would a multimeter read if the solenoid was bad? Would it simply show continuity where it shouldn't be? Thank you so much for everyones continued thoughts on this matter. I keep obsessing about it and trying to figure out where to go next...........
