Oil sample back on 3116 with a yellow/"monitor" rating

cwiert

cwiert

Active Member
SILVER Sponsor
May 7, 2008
566
Chester, CT
Boat Info
1998 400 Sedan Bridge
Engines
CAT 3116 - 350HP
Hi all,

My wife and I are looking to buy a 1998 400DB. It has the CAT 340 HP 3116 engines. After the sea trial, they took oil samples.
The port engine came back Green, or "No action required." The stbd engine came back yellow, or "Monitor." Samples were sent to H.O.Penn (my local authorized CAT dealer).

I got the yellow rating because of high sodium levels. They were 84 in the stbd engine. Only 5 in the Port engine. I'm assuming its PPM, but it doesn't say that anywhere on the report. The report also came back with this description...

"HIGH SODIUM(NA) MAY BE DUE TO SALT WATER CONTAMINATION. ALL OTHER LEVELS APPEAR ACCEPTABLE FOR UNKNOWN HOURS ON OIL.PLEASE INCLUDE HOURS WITH FUTURE SAMPLES. SUGGEST CHANGE OIL AND FILTER(S) AND RESAMPLE IN 25 HOURS TO MONITOR. "

I need to call HO Penn first thing in the morning to get more info on this. I want to know what the range is. When would it become a "Red" or "Stop running the engine immediately" type of issue?

My other question is, if these are closed-cooled engines, how can salt water possibly get in there? (yes, it's a salt water boat).

We were supposed to close on this boat on Friday and take delivery this weekend. Now my wife and I are both freaking out immensely. We don't know what to do.

Any help, clarification, or insight is appreciated.
 
I assume these have oil coolers. It's likely there is a leak between the raw water side and oil side.

Did you personally check oil level? Can you post the full reports?
 
I did not check the oil levels, my surveyor did. And he took all the samples. I really know nothing about these engines, as diesels are brand new to me. I don't know if they have oil coolers. Hopefully someone here can confirm if these engines came with coolers or not. If so, would the coolers be raw water cooled or would they also use the coolant? Here's the full report...

Stbd Oil Results
stbd20oil.jpg


Port Oil Results
port20oil.jpg
 
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I'd be shocked if they didn't have raw water cooled oil coolers and if the starboard one wasn't compromised. When was the oil last changed?

What did the transfluid samples show? The transmissions are probably raw water cooled too. Give the age of the engines all coolers may be original and starting to fail.

Do you know when the aftercoolers and primary heat exchangers were last apart for service and inspection?

Join boatdiesel.com, it has a wealth of information.
 
I hate to say this, but I would not close on this boat. Cat will tell you that any double digit sodium is bad. Although it is not in the red, you have saltwater penetrating. I would notify the seller and have them contact Cat to prove for where the contamination is coming from.
I failed a boat at survey due to 32ppm. I told the owner to have Cat check. They refused...I moved on. I lost about $3k in that failure, but cheaper than a engine at 40k. I failed another at inspection due to wet transom. Point being, don't let your heart guide this purchase. There are others.


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I had this exact issue on our 400 with 3116 engines. Changed the oil cooler and that solved the problem. Having said that the cause could be something much more difficult and expensive than an oil cooler! Depending on how good the deal is I would probably walk from this one.

Paul
 
Good boat with good engines. Any way you can talk owner into changing out the oil cooler, changing oil/filter, then put some hours on her and re-test ? could be done in a few weeks, still plenty of time to do this. I bought my last two boats in late November
 
I will let the diesel pros deal with this. One comment, you may want to delete the proprietary information on posts like this and just post the raw data in the future. If I were the owner, or seller, I wouldn't appreciate my engine oil results on the web for everyone to see. I don't like lawyers, so I do my best to avoid them.
 
The 3116TA's do not have engine oil coolers; nor do they have raw water aftercoolers. The only things raw water flow through are; the engine's heat exchanger, exhaust riser, transmission oil cooler, and most have a cooler for the return fuel. Consequently, the only probable area that salt water can infiltrate the engine oil is through the exhaust riser. There were issues in the stainless steel risers and Cat did a standard replacement with bronze. But, again if sea water is getting in the engine through the exhaust then there would be other significant issues with the engine. The question I would have is potassium also high? If potassium is also high you could have both a leak in the heat exchanger and getting coolant in the engine oil - very unlikely. What I would do if you really liked the boat is pull samples again and also take coolant samples. Seems to me the oil sample was contaminated outside of the engine. The engine coolant sample also reveals a lot and is valuable. The CAT ELC has a limited life.

As an edit and after looking at the data you provided something isn't right. For example saltwater intrusion doesn't reveal only with sodium, other contaminates also reveal. Surprised they don't look at soot but..... I'll stick with the sample was compromised after taken out of the engine and another should be done.
 
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If it were me, I'd first read up as much as I could on the possible sources of sodium in engine oil samples, and the value of a singular oil sample without an original control to compare it with (boatdiesel.com has quite a few posts on these; plus most testing labs have write-ups on causes of oil content) - then I'd figure out what to do next.
 
I don't know the range of sodium for oil sampling, but I can tell you that my engines are sampled every year, I have 1500 hours on them and the Na levels are usually "0" but I did have several "1's" and one "3". A reading of 84 indicated a problem that needs to be diagnosed and solved before you own the boat simply because an engine rebuild is what you are risking and not something you need to be responsible for as a buyer.

You should also be aware that your iron and copper levels are high in the STBD engine as well. These could indicate engine block, bearing or other interrnal component wear.

Sodium is also present in antifreeze, so you may have a head gasket leaking.

Sea water getting in the intake air circuit will also cause high sodium readings.

The solution is very simple........call your broker and tell him you are refusing the boat based on poor oil sample results and that you want your deposit back or you will accept the boat after the seller has H.O. Penn diagnose and repair the problem engine. If you do agree to let the seller have the boat repaired, be sure you write an addendum to the contract spelling out the specifics including when the seller must have the engine repaired.
 
Thanks for all the replies. In short, this really sucks. We've been looking for a while, and thought we finally found our next boat. So this is a real punch in the gut.

I'm a little confused still... A few people here (as well as others not on this thread) say that the likely culprit is the oil cooler. Yet, one person mentioned that the 3116 doesn't even have an oil cooler. My head is spinning.

I guess in the end, it doesn't really matter, because it's not my problem. I agree with Frank. The seller can have it fixed by H.O.Penn, or I walk. Simple as that. I'm not going to buy the boat and make it my problem. That said, it may be worth taking one more sample, however, to confirm the elevated Sodium and not a contaminated sample.

Coolant info (in case these numbers mean anything to anyone):

Port Coolant:
port20coolant.jpg


Stbd Coolant:
stbd20coolant.jpg
 
Do a google search for oil coolers cat 3116 and you will see there are parts on the internet for them so I would think they are like my Cummins and have internal oil coolers that are coolant cooled using typically a pump mounted on the front side of the engine that is turned via the belt. Impellers are steel and do not need to be changed. But for verification, I bet Frank would know OR visit boat diesel . com and start poking around. Engine oil coolers are not raw water cooler. Transmission oil coolers are raw water cooled. I would bet they have oil coolers.
 
trit21 said:
Do a google search for oil coolers cat 3116 and you will see there are parts on the internet for them so I would think they are like my Cummins and have internal oil coolers that are coolant cooled using typically a pump mounted on the front side of the engine that is turned via the belt. Impellers are steel and do not need to be changed. But for verification, I bet Frank would know OR visit boat diesel . com and start poking around. Engine oil coolers are not raw water cooler. Transmission oil coolers are raw water cooled. I would bet they have oil coolers.
Click to expand...

Well - not on my 350HP 3116TA's and I think I know those motors fairly well...
Raw water from the strainer comes through the return fuel cooler then in the suction side of the raw water pump. From the pump discharge through a rubber hose to the inlet of the engine's heat exchanger. Then out of the heat exchanger through a metal tube to the transmission oil cooler and finally from the transmission oil cooler to the under side of the exhaust riser and out the exhaust. That's it in a nutshell....
Now if there is an "internal" oil cooler on the engine ELC coolant side I'd like to see that; there is no access to it unless inside the crankcase and access is through the oil pan. And if it was leaking ELC then the potassium would show high also.
 
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Tom is correct. There is no engine lube oil cooler on the 3116 arrangement #'s Sea Ray used in these boats.

A different arrangement, like tug boats where constant tons under heavy loads, may have them, but these engines do not. Why Cummins needs oil coolers and Cats don't is just another design difference between makes, not good; not bad, just different.
 
OK so I went down to the boat and took this picture. That area is behind the oil filter. I'll acquiesce; learn something new every day. Regardless, I still in the camp that the sample was contaminated outside of the engine and another confirming one should be taken.
 
sweet said:
There was definitely oil coolers in our 3116s. Now that I think about it they were coolant cooled as opposed to salt water so probably aren't the issue here. This is what they look like:
Click to expand...

I can speak for the 3126 - definitely had the oil cooler as you describe and in the location you show in your pictures. I can also confirm that this was internally cooled and not raw water cooled.
 
Yes, oil coolers are COOLANT cooled (mounted on the engine) and NOT RAW WATER cooled. But, in the case of NI being high, coolant does contain NI so you have to evaluate the other elements in the oil test to determine if the sample is coolant, raw water or as ttmott suggested outside contamination. Another sample is a good idea and verify the tech is using new draw tubing so you don't get cross contamination, I assume that all surveyors do that but verify. I have heard to a leaking oil cooler where oil and coolant will mix but it is a rare event. I am no expert on diesel engine and don't know much about CATs at all (reason I refer to Frank for expert opinions) but when I hear there is Ni in the oil sample, I think either salt water is being fed backwards from the exhaust side of the turbo OR the aftercooler has a leak and is allowing salt water riden air into the intake.
 
I have a bit of an update with this. I had a long talk today with the lab the processed the oil. In summary, the tech said that Na was a bit abnormal, but not all that uncommon. THat's why they suggest simply monitoring it, which means changing the oil, running it 25 hours, and then retesting. I was told a common cause for higher Na # is salt water condensation. During these colder mornings, salt water will condense on the inside of the block. When you start the engines, the water burns off and you're left with the salt. The tech said it's not something that they'd be all that concerned with. But I'm the one paying the check, so it's a concern to me. I was also told that once the Na is detected at a PPM higher than 25, they automatically look for antifreeze or water in the oil. Their tests showed neither.

So, where does that leave me? Well, tomorrow I am heading back to the boat and I will take more oil samples myself. I'm going to take one sample on the suspect engine cold, and then 2 more samples (one on each engine) once the engines are warmed up and have been under load for 10 minutes. Once I get the results back from those 3 tests it will be decision time.

Stay tuned.
 
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