What's a pension fund? Do they withold pay and give it back to you later when you retire? Sounds dumb, unless the worker is. Maybe human resources can do an intelligence test and withold pay from the dumb workers and promise them a pension and allow the smarter workers to keep their money for their own investment. I'll take the 401k with company match so I don't have to risk management driving the company into bankruptsy or losing my kids inheritance should I die early.
Mercury Marine and Unions
- Thread starter Four Suns
- Start date
- Aug 8, 2008
- 2,998
- Boat Info
- A 300 DA 4kw Gen-set, central vac, electric head, windlass, AC/reverse heat, Lowrance 522ci GPS Char
- Engines
- twin 5.7 with Alpha drives
Kameroo
Member
My pension fund is a negotiated part of a compensation package, thank you. We did the best we could and got it tied to a manager's plan so they couldn't steal it away from us as easily. My father wasn't so lucky after 32 years with a company, as he had his negotiated away through a corporate bankruptcy plan. You all know the shell game.
Yes, also have a Roth 401K but that's my own money.
Back to the Merc employees, only those on the inside know all the details but I'll bet they knew what they were up against.
Yes, also have a Roth 401K but that's my own money.
Back to the Merc employees, only those on the inside know all the details but I'll bet they knew what they were up against.
- Nov 12, 2006
- 5,334
- Boat Info
- 1999 Sea Ray 330DA
Twin 7.4 MPI (310 propshaft HP) V-drives
- Engines
- Twin Mercury Marine marinized 7.4L L-29 V8s
Cast iron block w 4-bolt mains
The main problem with unions is that they claim, "We're all in it together," when in fact, they actually act more like "We're all in this together for us." Most of the membership is not part of "us." Union manglement works for the members just like Congress works for the voters.
I'd rather be independent and competing against the other guy. Yeah, there might be a few other guys somewhat better than I, but it's not all that hard to be better than most of the rest. I'll take those odds rather than being sucked down into the mediocrity of the masses.
Best regards,
Frank
I'd rather be independent and competing against the other guy. Yeah, there might be a few other guys somewhat better than I, but it's not all that hard to be better than most of the rest. I'll take those odds rather than being sucked down into the mediocrity of the masses.
Best regards,
Frank
You are having someone negotiate that your employer keep some of your money and promise to give it back to you in 10-20-30 years? Why don't they negotiate a company match on a 401k and let you have your money for retirement today? Don't you see the inherent problem with pensions? You trust someone you don't know to negotiate with someone you don't trust. You trust that the company will protect and invest your pension money wisely and be around for 10-20-30 years. Pensions are worse for employees than they are for employers. The world is a different place than it was when pensions were created.
The manager gets their nice salary and bonus, plus the pension that they really don't need if they invest for retirement wisely. Management can steal it away from you anytime they want by paying themselves huge bonuses and driving the company into bankruptsy, making all contracts null and void, including your pension.
The money promised in your pension is also your money. As you said, it is part of a compensation package for your work. I wish they would give it to you every week as you earn it, so you can protect it.
So, the unions are doing you no favor in fighting for your pension. It guarantees you nothing. A wasted effort IMO. So, that eliminates one of their great responsibilities. What's left? Safety in the workplace? That's for OSHA and lawyers.
Wages? More money/hr than it takes to build a Toyota in KY will get you a closed factory. Workplace conditions? What are the problems? Hours? What about the relative who works 60 hrs/wk? Would they give up their job to one in the pool of 10% unemployed Americans?
Last edited:
- Aug 8, 2008
- 2,998
- Boat Info
- A 300 DA 4kw Gen-set, central vac, electric head, windlass, AC/reverse heat, Lowrance 522ci GPS Char
- Engines
- twin 5.7 with Alpha drives
This one is funnier than your last one. I put X number of dollars in my pension and my company matches it. They cannot get at my money and if I quit before I have worked 10 years I can take all of it with me after that it is locked in till 65. Even if the company goes under my money is save. I also put money in a retirement fund and it is protected not a very high return but safe. Funny how people that know nothing about unions and union pensions like to tell those that have them how terrible we are doing. :smt009
Ken
Is yours PBGC backed? Not all are. If a company is struggling, they may not be able to bring their underfunded pension plan back up to cover their obligations.
You can pick and chose FDIC backed investments, but you can't always pick a responsible company and one that backs their pensions with the PBGC.
- Feb 4, 2007
- 7,251
- Boat Info
- 1996 450DA, TNT, Caribe dink w/15hp OB.
- Engines
- 3126 427HP TD transmissions
Well, a lot of good the union did for those poor folks. I hope they can find a job building engines for... Oh that's right, there aren't any jobs.
- Aug 8, 2008
- 2,998
- Boat Info
- A 300 DA 4kw Gen-set, central vac, electric head, windlass, AC/reverse heat, Lowrance 522ci GPS Char
- Engines
- twin 5.7 with Alpha drives
Different states and provinces have different laws, the last company I left before 10 years, I took my money and theirs put it into my retirement fund, my current employer a college can't touch my pension, it is controlled by the union, they have all the funds. I put $412.10 every 2 weeks into my pension and the school matches it and it is a tax deductible. The union cannot touch our pension fund either, they can invest it and send us yearly reports on how it is doing but the principle fund must be secured at all times. Got to love all that free money.
Ken
That's the law by the ERISA for all pension funds. Sounds like yours is well funded. Who would have thought a company like GM would not be able to meet their pension obligations by law? Good thing they were backed by the federal government. Not all are. Is yours? That is the first question. The next question is, does your union invest your pension money as you would based on your individual investment goals?
sprink56
New Member
- Oct 28, 2008
- 1,288
- Boat Info
- 1979 255 Liberator
- Engines
- twin Mercruiser 450 HP I/O on Bravo I Drives
I had that pension fund deal when I was a manger with one of Tyco's big divisions (Hint: Starts with a "G"") and had about $450K go bye-bye when that red headed SOB Dennis Kozlowski and his ******* buddies started spending money on $1M birthday parties for his wife in Sardina and such crap as that. I went into business for myself, took my best customers with me and never looked back. Best move I ever made. :thumbsup:
AKBASSKING
Active Member
- Apr 13, 2008
- 4,649
- Boat Info
- 1988 Yacht Fisher
- Engines
- Twin 375hp Cat 3208 T/A
Sounds similar to the federal retirement fund I am under. My retirement system has 3 legs to it. An annuity, which the feds contribute to, a Social Security offset (this quits after I reach 62 and start receiving SS) and a Thrift Savings Plan (TSP). The feds match my first 5% and I can contribute up the IRS max tax free.
The difference is the union, nor management has control over my retirement, I do. I can invest my TSP however I like within the options I am given, such as bonds, S&P 500, International and hopefully soon a Roth option. Before the stock market took a tank I was getting 34% returns. I was lucky as I moved all my funds into the bonds before the market took a dive and I didn't lose any money.
Bodkin Creek George
Member
Easy on the union bashing guys. I worked union all my life and retired union and I am very proud of it. I have a great retirement and benefits from the International Union of Elevator Constructors. I vote Republican most of the time and I'm proud of that too. The reason that management despises Unions so much can be summed up in one quote. "Unions are living proof of managements inability and failure to properly manage the workers, for if they had done so they would have satisfied the basic worker need which is job satisfaction, without which there is no productivity and that means no profit" The fact that Unions exist is proof of managements failures. Now enough of that. Let's all play nice and enjoy our boats. We all worked had to get them, Union or otherwise.
Have a wonderful rest of the summer
George
Have a wonderful rest of the summer
George
Kameroo
Member
JV- I understand the pensions issues you bring up. After I max the 401k, then hit the federal limit with a 100% vested defined contribution B-plan, there is the pension, or the third leg of the retirement package. Not as dumb as you give me credit for. I just hope there's enough in there to buy a nice boat when I retire.
With all respect to your opinion, isn't that management bashing? I do agree that with no productivity there is no profit. That is only one facet of a successful business. With no profit a company is in financial trouble.
Toyota tied Chrysler in productivity in 2008. Toyota is non-union. Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Nissan and Mercedes are non-union. So will follow the Kia and Volkswagon plants being built now.
None of them are in financial trouble. So, wouldn't that be living proof that management has the ability to succeed in properly managing the workers?
skibum
Well-Known Member
I have the same issue with unions that I have with government in general. Both claim to be "helping" the "little guy", but in reality are doing them great harm. The union flat out failed these Merc employees. They went all in when they should have folded. The UAW failed the GM workers in more ways than one. They drove GM into being a "retirement and health care plan that builds cars to survive" instead an automobile manufacturer. Face it. 2-3 years ago, GM was selling SUVs like crazy. Life was good. Then, the unions supported political candidates who did not have a viable energy plan which set up the conditions for the high gas prices we saw (and probably will again) last year. This of course, was a large contributor to the death of the SUV and large passenger car business, driving them bankrupt.
The best is yet to come. The unions still exist as they do now almost entirely due to government support (particularly, from the Democrat party). That government now owns 60% of that same bankrupt company. The financial problems that they face are still present. That problem is a cost problem. It costs them too much to build a vehicle to be competitive with the foreign manufacturers. The last number that I heard (it may be wrong) was $7000 per vehicle for employee benefits. Now the government is in a position where it is going to need to effect cost controls. Guess what? The unions must now bargain with an entity that has the power to limit what it can do, manipulate the rules under which it must operate and bargain, or erradicate the union completely with the stroke of a pen. Not an enviable position to say the least... :smt009
I can no longer buy any union made product or service. I am not happy about it but my hands are tied. On the one hand, I want to support the businesses that my family, friends, and neighbors rely on to put food on their table and roofs over their heads, but on the other hand any money that I spend at those businesses ends up in the hands of a political party that is literally dismantling the country I love right before my very eyes. I had to make a tough decision, and it sucks. There is an easy answer. If you are a union member or representative, you now know why some of us do not support you. Change what you are doing, or lose our support. Period.
The best is yet to come. The unions still exist as they do now almost entirely due to government support (particularly, from the Democrat party). That government now owns 60% of that same bankrupt company. The financial problems that they face are still present. That problem is a cost problem. It costs them too much to build a vehicle to be competitive with the foreign manufacturers. The last number that I heard (it may be wrong) was $7000 per vehicle for employee benefits. Now the government is in a position where it is going to need to effect cost controls. Guess what? The unions must now bargain with an entity that has the power to limit what it can do, manipulate the rules under which it must operate and bargain, or erradicate the union completely with the stroke of a pen. Not an enviable position to say the least... :smt009
I can no longer buy any union made product or service. I am not happy about it but my hands are tied. On the one hand, I want to support the businesses that my family, friends, and neighbors rely on to put food on their table and roofs over their heads, but on the other hand any money that I spend at those businesses ends up in the hands of a political party that is literally dismantling the country I love right before my very eyes. I had to make a tough decision, and it sucks. There is an easy answer. If you are a union member or representative, you now know why some of us do not support you. Change what you are doing, or lose our support. Period.
mawyatt
New Member
It's called Social Security for us dumb workers, they make you and the company pay!!
I forgot to mention that there is not only union bashing on this forum, but at the gates of Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Mercededs, and BMW plants in the US, by the workers of those plants. The unions have set up camp outside the gates and in the town centers to try to rally and recruit the workers. No takers, no interest. That has to say something. I am seeing the same thing starting to happen to the rallying call of the Democrats. Losing interest, losing members. I live in MA. That has to say something. The next election is going to be interesting.
Mogut
New Member
OK YOU HATE UNIONS! we get it... next
The Feds already take some of my money for SS that even they even say might not be there for me when I retire. Why would I want my company doing that to me too?
I'm sure you are not dumb, but they sure treat you like you are.
