Making offer on 420DA

[Gofirstclass]

A few suggestions--

-do your research to find out what both boats are selling for. This gives you a good starting point.
-don't let them confuse you about what your boat is worth or what their boat is worth. The only figure you should be dealing on is the difference price between the two boats. Anything else is smoke and mirrors.
-arrange your boat loan ahead of time so that can't become a factor in the negotiations.
-schedule two surveyors. The first one will check all the equipment on the boat and the hull itself. The second one will check engines and transmissions.
-make your offer to SB contingent on the boat successfully passing both surveys. Add in the provision that the difference price will be reduced by the cost of fixing any serious deficiencies and that you have the option of having those deficiencies repaired at a boat yard of your choice.
-also add in the provision that the boat must pass a sea trial that includes running the boat at WOT for 10 minutes. This will determine several things. First, that there are no impediments to the flow of cooling water through the engines. This is evidenced by the boat maintaining proper cooling temperature throughout the 10 minutes. It also will determine if the boat is over-propped or under-propped. If it's over-propped the boat will run at its WOT speed but won't reach the WOT rpm range. If it's under-propped the boat will reach the WOT rpm's but won't hit the WOT speed.

I'd suggest you meet with both surveyors (over breakfast??) prior to the surveys. Tell them what you expect from them, ask them to walk you through with them as they do the surveys so you can see what they're doing and have a good understanding of how things are supposed to work. As the hull/equipment surveyor to show you how all the equipment works (radar, other electronics, etc) and how the controls work.

You should know ahead of time what you want that difference price to be. They likely will be thousands of dollars away from your difference price. Ask SB how long they've had the 420 in their inventory. This can help you negotiate because after a year, if the boat has been floored by a bank, they probably had to buy it from the bank and have their own $$$ tied up in it rather than still having it floored through the bank. If that's the case, remind them that if they make this deal they'll have a lot less of their money tied up in the boat than they do now with the bigger boat. As the negotiations progress come up slowly off your difference price. Don't be bashful about coming up in small steps and don't expect to have to meet them in the middle.

ON a final note, here's a thread you may be able to pick up some tips from....
http://www.boatingabc.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/20227/1/Negotiating_tips_for_buying_yo.html

Call SR, give them the HIN and find out the "build list". This will tell you exactly what what options were on the boat when it was ordered. SR can also give you the engine serial numbers. With that information you can call the engine manufacturer to find out if any warranty work was done on them. SR can also tell you if any warranty work was done on the boat itself, separate from the engines.

Take your time with this. Do you homework before you make an offer then, when you do, you'll feel more confident in the buying process.

 

[J.Wilt]

Wow, lots of great information, thanks a lot !
I have to keep reminding myself that I'm not desperately seeking to buy, if it works out in my favor, I've won.

 

[my3sons]

GFC, your post has a lot of good stuff, but I am reading it that you have both guys there at the same time, hope you don't mind if I add that the above could get expensive while the diesel mechanic waits around for the hull survey to be over so he can do his thing. The boat needs to be out of the water for part of the hull survey, and in the water for the engines. Most diesel guys are $ per hour portal to portal. you might want to do the hull one day, and the engines the next. That way if there is a deal breaking hull problem, a quick phone call and the diesel guy isn't even involved. Just my 2 cents

 

[Carver370]

I will add that I would not be concerned with the price of either boats. What you are negotiating on is the difference on the trade. Weigh those numbers out with the tax savings you will benefit from being able to trade in and then go from there.

I wouldn't get too caught up on what you need to net on your boat or what they are asking or willing to take on the 420. The number you want to negotiate are the numbers between the two.

 

[jrirvine1]

Jeff, you are considering one of the all-time best Searay designs and I hope it works out for you. All previous comments are spot on, very sound advice and I would only add one other consideration.

You wrote, “I have tried selling my 320DA with broker and on my own with no luck.” With spring coming (eventually) you may want to take one more try to aggressively sell your boat. The market typically heats up during the next few months and you may just get lucky and find the perfect buyer. With your boat sold and some cash in hand, this I think places you in much more control during any pricing negotiations. I have been through this a few times and found this to work much better than letting the brokers play too many numbers games with the trade.

If you have any specific questions on the 420, please ask.

 

[HUMPH]

Don't discount the 460DA they have coming in either!

 

[J.Wilt]

Today I took a closer look at the 420DA that we wanted to put an offer on , I'm am really taken back on how dirty the boat is and this is sitting in a dealers showroom! Hard water spots and build up on the hull, topside needs a good wash and wax, down in the main cabin I lifted up some of the storage compartment access panels and there was water in them, I about through-up when I looked at the forward sump and bilge pump I don't think it has been cleaned in a long long time. So I asked the sales person to open the engine hatch so I could look at the engines, also dirty.
I took a couple pictures one is of the turbo's, much darker tan in color and the paint is flaking off

This is a picture of te top of the valve covers I think, also rust and paint flaking

This is of the coolest filters, Are my eyes seeing this right, dose that read 10-1-09???

Now I'm thinking of dropping the price, but I'm concerned that the engine survey is not going to pass!

 

[trit21]

Tan on the turbo: This comes from the intense heat that is built up from the pressurized air. Sometimes not a problem, other times it is. It could be normal OR if it is real badly 'tan' then it could mean the engine was run hard. If the boat can reach over rated RPM when fully loaded, then it is probably not a problem and just normal heat build up. If the engines can't reach rated RPM when fully loaded, then it could mean the boat was run hard than normal which creates not only high air pressure temps but also higher than normal EGT (exhaust gas temp) which could be a sign of severe overloading which could wear the engine quickly. SO.....once a sea trial is done and some RPM , Max RPM's are recorded this may or may not be a problem.

2nd photo show exhaust manifold where paint has burned off, that is normal under all circumstances and nothing to worry about.

3rd photo show the coolant filter that also supplies the engine with DCA additive for the coolant. I don't have to do that on my engine so I don't know the normal change out time for that but I am sure other will chime in when they need to be changed. There is a test strip that is used to determine levels and change out time for the DCA. I don't think these filters (DCA supply filter) gets changed every year but you will have to look into that.

As far as the rest of the boat, I am just not sure as I don't own a 420 but it sounds like it has not be kept in the best shape it could have been kept.

 

[fwebster]

Everything you point out is typical for Cummins engines as Tom pointed out.

SCA's are supplemental coolant additives added to reduce corrosion and prevent cavitation in the coolant around the cylinder liners. Typically, you need to check the SCA level annually then replenish when the concentration is low enough to indicate it. The test is a simple "litmus paper" type test where you submerse a reagent strip in the coolant, then read the level by comparing the color of the reagent to a color code. Given the overall state of the boat you described, I'd guess this is a neglected maintenance item…….6 years means the boat has been running with low SCA's for 3-4 years. You need to point this out to your engine surveyor and have him see if there is a cost effective way to check for erosion of the castings from coolant cavitation. Based on this alone, I'd say you need a Cummins certified technical very familiar with 6CTA marine engines instead of a local independent diesel guy.

Soap and water is cheap and catching up maintenance on Cummins engines won't break your back. Detailed and thorough hull and engine surveys will be your friend here. Based on your comments, and the fact that this boat is at a dealer, I'd suggest that you don't even mention the condition of the boat but do include an annual service and a complete detailing in your contingencies, then be prepared to cancel your contract when the surveys come back. If the boat checks out, then you have a reasonable deal; if it doesn't and the dealer wants to sell the boat, then you will be in a great position to negotiate the survey deficits in your favor.

 

[J.Wilt]

Thanks for the reassuring comments! I have a lot to learn about diesels. The dealer did say that the 500 hr service was completed. Wouldn't the coolest fluid have been replaced then? One reason why I thought those filters were old, possibly from an earlier service flush.
PM'ed the hull number and engine #s to Captin Rusty, I believe he's working on getting me some info from SeaRay.
Soap, Wax and buffing is therapy for me but damn there a lot of fiberglass on that boat!

 

[almostenuff]

Also, look at the condition of the air separators. That'll cost another $500 to update the field kit

 

[CougarCruiser]

Thanks for the reassuring comments! I have a lot to learn about diesels. The dealer did say that the 500 hr service was completed. Wouldn't the coolest fluid have been replaced then? One reason why I thought those filters were old, possibly from an earlier service flush.
PM'ed the hull number and engine #s to Captin Rusty, I believe he's working on getting me some info from SeaRay.
Soap, Wax and buffing is therapy for me but damn there a lot of fiberglass on that boat!

Just my .02, My boat has these motors. So, I can say I speak from recent experience. We brought our boat in from Canada where it was not mechanically 'healthy'. Fortunately, it had all the right bones, just needed to go through the paces on getting everything up to current.

1) The turbo flaking. This a sure tell sign that this boat was run hard - ALOT. I have 480CE motors on mine, and my turbos sure do look dark tan compared to Cummins white, but the flaking is NOT expected. That boat has been run hard. I bought out boat with 960 hours, and it's a SALT boat - and I don't have near the heat issue that this one does.

2) The fact that the coolant filter says 2009 tells me they neglected the cooling system. Find out when the 500 hour service was performed and what was actually done. Coolant should be flushed more regularly than ever 5 years. Anyone who disagrees is wrong. Sure, it can be tested - but it's just another sign of a possibly neglected boat.

3) 480CEs are not QSB's, and not full mechanical diamond series or an even older generation. They are a special monster with a computerized fuel system, and mechanical rest of the parts. It was a few years of production that bridged the transition to the quantum series. These motors are great motors if they are well taken care of, and they are nightmares if not. You'll want to run the boat all the way up to 2680 RPM (electronically limited) - with as many people/full fuel/supplies. If it doesn't hit 2680 and run stable for 10 minutes - then run away. Don't waste your money on a survey. Agree to a price with sea trial as the next step.


4)) Those motors need to run a particular firmware version in the computer. PM me if you get that far along, or look at boatdiesel.com for the stumble/stall reported issues.


In the Pac NW (not a cheap place for service), a full oil/filter change, coolant flush, valve adjustments, after cooler and heat exchangers service, raw water pump impellers, computer update costs north of $8-10,000. Trust me, I know. I didn't have to rebuild my turbos, so we just cleaned them out.



We bought a boat that was neglected in many ways, but still had all the right bones to become a fantastic boat. Realize that the cosmetic stuff, however, can be an early indicator as to how the rest of the boat has been maintained. Many folks are break/fix kind of people - and happy fix only if necessary at times. Many on this forum are opposite that mentality and have a tremendous amount of pride of ownership. If you can find an ugly duckling, get a deal on it, and make it yours -- go for it! Surely, don't pay a premium on for it!

 

[Woody]

JWilt, I sent you a PM.

 

[Gofirstclass]

GFC, your post has a lot of good stuff, but I am reading it that you have both guys there at the same time, hope you don't mind if I add that the above could get expensive while the diesel mechanic waits around for the hull survey to be over so he can do his thing. The boat needs to be out of the water for part of the hull survey, and in the water for the engines. Most diesel guys are $ per hour portal to portal. you might want to do the hull one day, and the engines the next. That way if there is a deal breaking hull problem, a quick phone call and the diesel guy isn't even involved. Just my 2 cents

You're spot on and my bad for not mentioning that. The hull/equipment surveyor went to the boat three times. The first to were to check the hull and interior while it was out of the water. The second trip was after it had been launched and he checked out more equipment that couldn't be checked on the hard (depth finder and some other things) and the third trip was when we sea trialed it. That was all included in the flat fee charge he quoted me. The engine/transmission surveyor came out the day of the sea trial.

The three of us had met for breakfast so I could reiterate with them about what my expectations were in their surveys. This was my first diesel boat and my first "bigger" boat so I wanted them to be very thorough and basically keep me from buying a pig with lipstick.

The engine surveyor said we should insist the boat be run at WOT for 10 minutes to ensure (a) there were no cooling system issues, and (b) to make sure it was not over- or under-propped.

The salesman balked at that but I told him the deal was off unless we did that and the engine surveyor (a CAT mechanic!) backed me up. We did it and the engine temp never went up close to being hot, and the boat reached the specified WOT speed and engine rpm.