isinglass vs. strataglass for rolling....(long post)

SKybolt said:
I will say this. I previously had polycarbonate (Makrolon) and it was great, actually fantastic, short lived though 5-6 years. Cleaned it regularly with Plexus. Recently had it replaced with Strata 60. Thought it would be as nice since the canvas guy refused to use EZ2CY or Makrolon and he was the only guy I could get (Very popular guy) to do it in my area. Anyway I agreed to the Strata 60, IMO extremely over priced to the point of absurd $800 for three front windscreen pieces. Had other quotes for 450, but they never showed up. So I went with the 800. Beside being very clear and a very nice job, I hate it! I don't roll them up, but are clipped back by four twist clips. The corners sag and the center bellies, yes I get it as to why and was not expecting so badly (hit's me in the head). IMO you cannot beat the Polycarbonates for the front windscreen.

Now I am going to switch over to Makrolon AR and try and do it myself thanks to the sewing threads on this site by @ttmott and @HawkX66 and others. Another expensive lesson learned.
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I was under the impression that Makrolon needs to be heat bonded or is that just the process that Raineer Marine uses? The laminated polycarbonate windows that I have seen fail prematurely are windows that make up corner panels and form a radius. The problem is that there is tension developed on the outside of the plastic and compression on the inside surface. Over time those surfaces breakdown and craze. This happens with Strata as well, hence why the rolled or pressed vinyl products last longer. Its amazing that no one has been able to come up with a window that is both rigid and durable but selling a product that needs to be replaced every 6 years is way more lucrative than selling products that last ten to twelve years I guess. I would think that they could sell ten times the product they do if it lasted longer. I have friends that were sold Strata for the qualities it promises but no mention of the relative short longevity. Of course when I asked what independent research they did on the various products they admitted they had not done any so..... I don't remember where I read this but I found somewhere that the Polycarbonate manufacturers only offers warrant on their product if it is installed in a solid frame. No warranty is made or offered for marine application. Happy to be corrected on this. I think some canvas fabricators do them selves a disservice by not educating the client. I always did my best to educate my aircraft owners/customers to earn their confidence. I built long lasting relationships and could count on their repeat business and not worry about having to attract new customers.
Carpe Diem
 
Carpediem44DB said:
I was under the impression that Makrolon needs to be heat bonded or is that just the process that Raineer Marine uses? The laminated polycarbonate windows that I have seen fail prematurely are windows that make up corner panels and form a radius. The problem is that there is tension developed on the outside of the plastic and compression on the inside surface. Over time those surfaces breakdown and craze. This happens with Strata as well, hence why the rolled or pressed vinyl products last longer. Its amazing that no one has been able to come up with a window that is both rigid and durable but selling a product that needs to be replaced every 6 years is way more lucrative than selling products that last ten to twelve years I guess. I would think that they could sell ten times the product they do if it lasted longer. I have friends that were sold Strata for the qualities it promises but no mention of the relative short longevity. Of course when I asked what independent research they did on the various products they admitted they had not done any so..... I don't remember where I read this but I found somewhere that the Polycarbonate manufacturers only offers warrant on their product if it is installed in a solid frame. No warranty is made or offered for marine application. Happy to be corrected on this. I think some canvas fabricators do them selves a disservice by not educating the client. I always did my best to educate my aircraft owners/customers to earn their confidence. I built long lasting relationships and could count on their repeat business and not worry about having to attract new customers.
Carpe Diem
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I do believe you are correct, in that Polycarbonates need to be glued and that was a reason he did not want to install it. That said, my original ones were stitched in place. The previous owner had these done, I was told with Makrolon but could have been something else. I bought the boat based on what I saw/found and not what he was saying. They were awesome the first 5yrs. and ~6yrs they were all crazed and this year (two years later meaning at 8yrs.) could not be seen out of all yellow and crazed. Only recently got someone to replace them as stated above. Couldn't get anyone to replace during initial COVID last year. So going to do some research on sewing Polycarbonate and see what happens, gluing would work for me as that would be easy, but then in 5yrs have to have everything remade, not so happy with that, but maybe by then it will be time to replace everything anyway.
 
I think you have to have a water cooled needle to sew the hard acrylics - at least that is what one of my installers on my last boat told me...
 
carterchapman said:
I think you have to have a water cooled needle to sew the hard acrylics - at least that is what one of my installers on my last boat told me...
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Had no idea that even existed. I see I have ALOT of reading to do before I even think about doing this myself, that or use glue ...
 
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carterchapman said:
I think you have to have a water cooled needle to sew the hard acrylics - at least that is what one of my installers on my last boat told me...
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SKybolt said:
Had no idea that even existed. I see I have ALOT of reading to do before I even think about doing this myself, that or use glue ...
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I had my my entire biminis and a new camper back fabricated along with a new enclosure built spring 2021. I had the front 5 pieces (fwd the arch) made with polycarbonate. It was the first Time this shop had used it. He didn’t say anything about a special water cooled needle. Definitely sewn. It’s a pita to store when not in use, but with only 2 people typically on our boat overnight, it lays on the aft bed. It looks so much better than isenglass in pics. So smooth compared with the others in these pics, mine is the black canvas boat. (2000 380 DA) in the center of most pics.
225DD813-4C8A-4D53-8B60-D8CCF21CFD97.jpeg
DC526185-171D-4C00-9006-03DFB370CDE4.jpeg
E79D1CD5-94F6-41DD-884E-61A96099F43C.jpeg
 
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Chris-380 said:
I had my my entire biminis and a new camper back fabricated along with a new enclosure built spring 2021. I had the front 5 pieces (fwd the arch) made with polycarbonate. It was the first Tim e this shop had used it. He didn’t say anything about a special water cooled needle. Definitely sewn. It’s a pita to store when not in use, but with only 2 people typically on our boat overnight, it lays on the aft bed. It looks so much better than isenglass in pics. So smooth compared with the others in these pics, mine is the black canvas boat. (2000 380 DA) in the center of most pics. View attachment 115529View attachment 115530View attachment 115531
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I could not agree with you more about the polycarbonate, great look and vision. I never remove the windows from the top, but have four twist snaps around each piece, two at the corners and two in the middle of the window. That allows them to fold back and fasten to the top. But I also only open the ends and the middle stays snapped. But my windshield is straight (like the boat to the left of you in the last pic) in those area's and might be difficult for your configuration.
 
Macrolon, Strataglass, Isenglass, Polycarbonate, EZ2CY, OSea, Vinyl, Acrylic, Pressed, Rolled, 40 gauge, 60 gauge, Folded, Flat, glued, stitched, and on and on.....
No matter what you do the expected life for any of these is 5 or 6 years exposed to the elements and taken care of.
Yea, Yea "I got 10 years and it still as good as the day it was installed"...... Maybe if the boat was in a museum..
If you handle the product it will get scratched; if the product is dirty it will definitely get scratched; if you roll it up it will assuredly get scratched.
Sun is bad, air pollution is worse.
If you clean with harsh chemicals it will degrade faster.
So, spend your money wisely for good vision, prevention of scratching, and a plan to replace in X years.
From the school of hard knocks.
 
Well, good timing. At The Office for a few days for some major cleaning. Purposely did not bring the 23 Bay so as to not be tempted to fish. Bridge enclosure on the list, may try that Pledge thing....we have stratoglass.
 
440 Jim said:
Well, good timing. At The Office for a few days for some major cleaning. Purposely did not bring the 23 Bay so as to not be tempted to fish. Bridge enclosure on the list, may try that Pledge thing....we have stratoglass.
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You should read this -
https://www.strataglass.com/care-and-maintenance
Typical of all of the manufacturers; message is do not use Pledge.....
 
ttmott said:
Macrolon, Strataglass, Isenglass, Polycarbonate, EZ2CY, OSea, Vinyl, Acrylic, Pressed, Rolled, 40 gauge, 60 gauge, Folded, Flat, glued, stitched, and on and on.....
No matter what you do the expected life for any of these is 5 or 6 years exposed to the elements and taken care of.
Yea, Yea "I got 10 years and it still as good as the day it was installed"...... Maybe if the boat was in a museum..
If you handle the product it will get scratched; if the product is dirty it will definitely get scratched; if you roll it up it will assuredly get scratched.
Sun is bad, air pollution is worse.
If you clean with harsh chemicals it will degrade faster.
So, spend your money wisely for good vision, prevention of scratching, and a plan to replace in X years.
From the school of hard knocks.
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Well said....."If you handle the product it will get scratched"...and even if you do not handle it, somehow, it will get scratched...this is just a necessary evil.....

Bennett
 
bbwhitejr said:
Well said....."If you handle the product it will get scratched"...and even if you do not handle it, somehow, it will get scratched...this is just a necessary evil.....

Bennett
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Yep, no matter what, it will get scratched. I hope to minimize the damage I do. We use ours the first and last month of the season. And if it rains during the summer…. I plan to get more years than 5-6, but in a covered slip in central illinois, I think getting 10plus will be very easy, minus the damage I do… lol
 
ttmott said:
Macrolon, Strataglass, Isenglass, Polycarbonate, EZ2CY, OSea, Vinyl, Acrylic, Pressed, Rolled, 40 gauge, 60 gauge, Folded, Flat, glued, stitched, and on and on.....
No matter what you do the expected life for any of these is 5 or 6 years exposed to the elements and taken care of.
Yea, Yea "I got 10 years and it still as good as the day it was installed"...... Maybe if the boat was in a museum..
If you handle the product it will get scratched; if the product is dirty it will definitely get scratched; if you roll it up it will assuredly get scratched.
Sun is bad, air pollution is worse.
If you clean with harsh chemicals it will degrade faster.
So, spend your money wisely for good vision, prevention of scratching, and a plan to replace in X years.
From the school of hard knocks.
Click to expand...

Yep, could not agree more. Boating my whole life and the "Isenglass" has never lasted more then 6 yrs. cleaned weekly, cleaned monthly makes no difference other then visibility.
 
440 Jim said:
So, should I not try it?
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I would not, but others use it religiously. Strataglass people are adamant about using Imar products. They make a cleaner, polish, and then an every day cleaner. If yours is older and showing age, might not be too big of a deal.

When I bought the 420DA, it had Strataglass across the front and the two sides in front of the arch. The 3-front pieces were badly scratched, but the two side pieces were almost perfect. I used the cleaner and polish and it made no difference on the front pieces, but the 2-side pieces remain perfect. I had my camper top made with 40 gauge vinyl as well as replaced the 3 front pieces with same.

Bennett
 
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bbwhitejr said:
I would not, but others use it religiously. Strataglass people are adamant about using Imar products. They make a cleaner, polish, and then an every day cleaner. If yours is older and showing age, might not be too big of a deal.

Bennett
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Of course they are going to push their own products. They certainly are not going to try to boost a "competitor's" products sales.
 
Fairly old but in good shape, I've got some Imar on the boat, that I don't remember putting there...so I'm gonna use it up before experimentation.

Thx folks!
 
440 Jim said:
So, should I not try it?
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I am probably just too cynical but I think Strata wants you to use their cleaner only because they sell it at a premium. I am sure that they get complaints regularly about performance of the product so the easiest way to combat that is to void the warranty if you cant prove you use only their product. The premium they charge for the generic cleaner they buy and rebrand funds the warranty claims. If there was such a difference in the chemical compounds that make up the Strata vs other products they could make that clear in the literature.
It is widely understood that harsh cleaners containing ammonia will physically attack most plastics and are only meant to be used on glass or other hard surfaces.
This is such a resourceful group, I would imagine if a side by side cleaner study existed it would have been found and shared. It would be worth while to do an experimental study with a hand full of different materials and the common favorite cleaners including the manufacturer's recommended ones and measure performance in specific categories. Of course this would need to be done in several regions over the same period since environment is a huge factor.
If enough of us are interested in participating, I could see making this happen.
Tom hit the nail on the head though. Buy what works for you and your pocket book, take reasonable care in cleaning and storing it and be happy if you get five years or more of good use out of it. Like batteries, bottom paint, and wax, windows and canvas are consumables necessary for a complete boating experience. If you can't afford to or don't budget for eventual replacement of the consumables, perhaps boat ownership is just not in the cards.
Carpe Deim
 
Regarding strataglass, plolycarbonate or isenglass, I have always used Plexus with great results. So much so I have revived clouded (slightly) glass with it. It's all I ever use. I have the iMar stuff for Strata. but that is so much work and I personally do not see the difference. I would never use pledge however, thats not to say it isn't the same as plexus or works fine, I just stick with what works for me.
 
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