Is this reasonable charges for replacing head gaskets?

F

frankn88

New Member
Jun 15, 2009
95
Eastern Shore, MD
Boat Info
270 Sundancer 1994
Engines
5.7L Merc w/ Bravo II
I'm trying to determine whether/how much I should complain about this. So before I tell you how many hours they charged, let me know how many hours you think is reasonable, or give a range (if you're interested). Here's the description of the work done:
COMPLETED: Sprayed down engine immediately upon haul out. Notified customer that
compression test needed to be performed and engine would need to be torn down to
diagnosis damage, customer Ok'd. Ran checks on engine and removed parts to use starter
button to crank engine. Ran compression test. Needed to pull port head on engine (customer
ok'd to tear down engine). Removed exhaust riser and manifold on port side and removed
intake and cylinder head. Bolts were not very tight? Head gasket was found to be bad and
there were no head guides installed. Tapped all head bolt holes. Installed new guides in
block. Cleaned all parts and flushed out engine. Installed head with new gasket and bolts.
Sealed all bolts and torqued to specs. Installed manifolds and risers. Charged batteries. Ran
engine on hose to warm up and make adjustments. Let engine cool down/retightened hoses
and manifold bolts. Sea trialed boat and took to slip. Reinstalled rails and hatches. Closed
up boat.

This is for work resulting from a blown gasket (didn't know that going in, but suspected it) and hyrdo-lock of the engine. So the "sprayed down" is getting the water out of the engine and fogging the cylinders. Rest of it's pretty self-explanatory I think. Don't know why he felt he needed to tap all the holes. Also should mention that I had just replaced all the exhaust components, gaskets, over the winter and it's probably my fault this happened because I must not have torqued the headbolts tight enough despite what my torque wrench told me... Anyway, my point is he didn't have to struggle taking anything apart by any means.
Thanks!
 
ya gotta retap the threads just to clean up the dried up sealant in there. Otherwise you get a false torque reading resulting in loose bolts
 
+1 on the tapping. I would estimate 12 - 16 hours at a marina. Not that I feel it should take that long. But, that is the way they are.
 
I am in the process of doing both heads on one of 454 Crusader's. By the time I'm done this weekend it will be 20-24 hours and about 1k in parts and having the heads redone. You job seems like 12-16 hours would be fair.
 
Frankn...did you use new head bolts? Did you use Perfect Seal? Besides chasing all threads, you should use new bolts. Old bolts might be fatigued from years of use as well as a second torque-ing. Sorry to hear about your troubles. I've done this job several times and it is very labor intensive. I'd say a dozen hours for a pro.

34227Q02_132_190.jpg
 
If my memory is correct, I believe the labor time (round about) for 454 head in a truck was around 9 hours. Small blocks were similar times (although the heads are lighter and much easier to maneuver!)
Add for the boat exhaust, diagnosis, sea trial, and thread tap I can see 12 hours easily.

There would have been no reason for you to torque the head bolts when replacing exhaust components. You would have unbolted the "exhaust manifold To head" bolts, but the "head bolts" are the ones near the spark plugs and under the valve cover that go down into the block.
Assuming a labor rate around $100, my guess for parts and labor would be somewhere near $1500-$2K
Did he change the oil afterwards? If it's a freshwater cooling system (even raw water) there will more than likely be some spillage into the lifter galley when removing the intake, and some from the exhaust manifolds/risers. It's also not the best for your oil pump to chew on pieces of gasket material that may have fallen in there while scraping.

Hottoddie, I'm assuming the majority of your parts bill would be the machine work to have the heads redone? The gasket kit would be the same one, since you would buy a head set with intake and head gaskets.
 
At least 20. No more than 30.

That's based on the way it written. I'm guessing the job should take no more than 2 days or about 16 hours.
 
Mark, you're right. Changing exhaust stuff wouldn't require head bolt work. I mis-read what Frank had done himself. I would always chase the threads, though there should be no sealant in them (not called for). But could be debris/rust/paint etc. that could cause a false reading on the torque wrench.
 
My guess 15-20 hrs. But what i find strange is that there is no mention of work on the stbd head.Not even to check the head bolt torque.
" I would always chase the threads, though there should be no sealant in them (not called for). But could be debris/rust/paint etc. that could cause a false reading on the torque wrench. "
Sealant is needed and specified for the head bolts because they go into the water jackets and without sealant can wick up the bolt into the valve covers
 
I was just noting that he thought he may have caused the issue when he installed the exhaust, and if he touched the head bolts, he was in the wrong area.
I always chased threads because I always use teflon based thread sealer on head bolts, as BT said. Some of the head bolts go into water jackets, and to keep torque consistent it goes on all bolts. This stuff gets gummy after it dries, and downright hard after years on an engine, adding to the need to chase threads.

rondds said:
Mark, you're right. Changing exhaust stuff wouldn't require head bolt work. I mis-read what Frank had done himself. I would always chase the threads, though there should be no sealant in them (not called for). But could be debris/rust/paint etc. that could cause a false reading on the torque wrench.
Click to expand...
 
no sealant in them (not called for).
Click to expand...
To clarify, if Frank didn't touch the head bolts and he was mistakenly calling the manifold or elbow bolts "head bolts," they do not require sealant. At least not according to the Merc Manual for my previous boat's Gen IV exhaust components. Head bolts certainly require a healthy dose of Perfect Seal (aka "Monkey Snot")
 
Someones confused here. Ron's just trying to argue because he doesn't have enough to fix on that "new" hotrod!! Sealant is not needed on exhaust components, only the real head bolts.

"Also should mention that I had just replaced all the exhaust components, gaskets, over the winter and it's probably my fault this happened because I must not have torqued the headbolts tight enough despite what my torque wrench told me"

The only reason I mentioned the exhaust was that he said maybe he messed the head bolt torque while doing exhaust work. If you had all head bolts loose, the exhaust could be removed with the head still bolted to it ( in reality this is not what you would do). I was simply explaining that he was confused about messing up the head bolt torque while doing exhaust replacement. Head bolts should not be touched for exhaust replacement.

Head bolts = sealer
Exhaust manifold to head bolt = No sealer
 
Sorry for the confusion - my fault. I did pull the heads and took them to a machine shop because I had a bent rod. I used sealant where I was supposed to, but good point about the threads giving me a false torque reading - hadn't thought of that and maybe that was the cause of my new troubles and my bill for..................$2800. $750 of that was parts, redoing the heads again (apparently it bent a couple valves), and misc. stuff, but 29.4 hours x $70/hour came to $2058 for labor. Now, keep in mind, he included labor for moving my boat across the (small) marina from my slip to the travel lift, flushing out the water in the engine, doing a compression check, making it so he could use the starter button(?) or whatever he described, final testing out, and in the water and putting the boat back in the slip, in addition to the tear-down, cleaning of parts (should have been minimal since it had just been done though), reassembly and adjustments.
I'm just trying to add all this up, and I figure (being very generous I think, more like how long I think it would take ME): 1 hour getting boat out of water, 1 hour setting up starter/removing hatches getting workspace ready, 2 hours flush and fog (I'd already removed spark plugs), 2 hours compression check, 4 hours tear down (2 per side), 2 hours parts cleaning/tapping holes, 2 hours miscellaneous fetching new parts/getting rags/whatever, 8 hours rebuild, 1 hour adjustment, 2 hours testing/putting back in slip = 25 hours.
So now what do you think? Actually when I list it out like that it doesn't seem QUITE as outrageous, but again, seems like that's the time it should take me, not him. What really annoyed me about the whole thing was I kept asking for an estimate, e.g., "What's it going to cost to tear this down to the heads and find out what's wrong?", and similar questions, and kept receiving answers like, "I can't tell you till I get in there." It may not have changed things, but it would have been nice to not be quite so sticker shocked when they were done!
 
Ok, what do I win?

And don't say part of the bill...

It doesn't seem too terribly far out of line but he certainly didn't cut you any breaks. If the job is complete and everything works correctly, the first time, and keeps working...

Pay up and move on.
 
It would be nice if mechanics would give "worst case scenario" costs. I fully understand that there is no way to tell exactly until you get in (I deal with that every day and get that question all the time). I can tell you your hourly labor rate is pretty darn good. Up here it's $110/hour.
 
i would find that man and give him a case of beer and a hug. $70 an hour is hard to find. you can't guess unless your sitting next to him what came up during the repair. maybe he had to make 10 phone calls to find parts, that is time on your project. maybe he took a mean ****...I don't know how his wife cooks...that price although it would hurt to get that bill, doesn't seem high to me for the amount of work involved and he had to come and get your boat out of the water. everything is time, if you had the ability to get the boat to him i'm sure it would have cost a lot less money. don't forget, he dropped whatever he was doing to come and get your boat to the travel lift. i'm sure he didn't have his feet on the desk waiting for something to do with an hourly rate like that.
 
AFD - he didn't expend much effort getting the boat, he works in the marina, so it's about 100 yards from my boat to his shop. I agree that I can't complain about the $70 an hour, and I don't think he's trying to screw me or anything. But it took him a full month to get it done (7/5 - 8/5), which I'm sure increased the hours somewhat. If you do a job straight through, you probably end up wasting a lot less time than starting, stopping, starting, stopping... I WILL get him a case of beer, though in retrospect I should have done that when I gave him the boat to fix! :eek:)
 
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