Is it worth it??????

[Vince_nj1]

Ugghhh, it needs a complete remodel inside, new Windows, air conditioning, new back yard, add to dock to fit boat, etc. getting to old for this stuff!

I faced a similar issue a few years ago. Buy a bigger boat or buy a house on the water with a dock. I decided the house was a smarter choice. My logic was that I could pay the real estate taxes instead of the marina fees and get a tax right off and I had expected the house to appreciate. Well things didn't work out exactly as planned. I bought the house and started repairs/remodeling. New kitchen/hardwood floors/new deck not to mention the need to buy furniture/beds/TVs duplicate tools etc. I nick named the house my labor camp. After about 2 years I thought I was finished but then super storm sandy rolled in and caused $50k in damages with only about $12K covered by flood insurance (pool/deck/landscaping/tools in garage not covered) and I had to start over again. In addition new flood regulations require most houses to be raised and since it is a 2nd home for me I do not qualify for any federal assistance and the house value has dropped 25%! So much for making the smart choice! There are some benefits to having the house, but life would have been simpler and more flexible without having a 2nd house to maintain. (If I am not happy at a Marina I can move, I can't move the house). In my opinion go for the bigger boat and avoid a 2nd house.

 

[ttmott]

Ken -
I've been looking at the 500, 52, 550, and 580 Sedan Bridges for several months now. You should consider that 500 DB; it is a huge difference in overall space compared to the DA. The 500DB has the large Cat's where the 550 and 580 has the MAN's. My mechanic said he would "divorce" me if I got a boat with the MAN's.
Get on a 500 or 52 Sedan Bridge and consider.....
Tom

 

[RollerCoastr]

Ken -
The 500DB has the large Cat's where the 550 and 580 has the MAN's.
Tom

The 500/52DB production run was during SeaRay & Cat's "trial separation", so you won't find Cats in them. Cummins or MAN.

 

[ttmott]

The 500/52DB production run was during SeaRay & Cat's "trial separation", so you won't find Cats in them. Cummins or MAN.

Ooops - you are right - QSM-11's
I also looked at the 480 DB which had the CAT 3196TA.
Looking at too many boats - my bad.
Tom

 

[RollerCoastr]

Looking at too many boats - my bad.
Tom

There's no such thing. :grin:

 

[HUMPH]

The 500/52DB production run was during SeaRay & Cat's "trial separation", so you won't find Cats in them. Cummins or MAN.

No way MAN's! No authorized mechanics to service here!

 

[fc3]

We use the boat a lot but are often space constrained (have you met my wife?). We enjoy trips down the coast and want to be comfortable doing that too. The Pacific North of Santa Barbara can be huge. I see 4' maybe 6' on the East Coast being fairly normal where we have 6' to 8' and well above that routinely here. Comfort would be good since we often stay for 3 or 4 days (or more) at a time at anchor. The extra capacity and room would be nice. The original question was is it worth to make a jump from a 410 to 460. I know it's worth it to jump to over 50'!

I recall testing a 460DA somewhere around the 2004ish timeframe. Loved the boat! Absolutely adored it! But, the Cummins CTA engines stunk. They literally smelled bad. The captain had the boat warming up waiting for another couple who said they want to trial the boat. So as we sat there waiting, I was choking on the diesel exhaust. But Cummins had a bad fuel system in the early 2000s, so that probably made the difference. I posted a comparison between Cat and Cummins from around that era. It didn't come out well for Cummins.

So depending on the model year, a 460 could have... off the top of my head, either Cat 3116, 3126, 3208, Cummins 8.3CTA or the CE engines. I think the QSMs might have been available later, but I forget. The CTA engines were stinky IMHO. I don't know about the CE. The 3116 and 3126 engines were just bulletproof and the 3208 will practically go forever. There's old 390 down the dock from me with 3208s and the boat runs great.

No way MAN's! No authorized mechanics to service here!

Personally, I wouldn't touch MAN diesels. Very strong engines, but... they're high strung, too.

Whatever you decide, make sure you evaluate the engines when cold.

Cat C12s.... I keep hearing mixed things about them. Some say that Cat finally fixed the after cooler problem from the 3196 on the C12. Others say the C12 has the same problem. Still others say that after coolers on the 3196 and C12 are disposable wear parts and should be rebuilt periodically, just like raw water impellers need to be changed periodically. I don't know but after coolers seem like a pretty major component to treat like a water pump impeller. But... what do I know?

 

[HUMPH]

6 CTA 8.3 M4 Cummins in a 2005 http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...2955596/ISLETON/CA/United-States#.V5g1qJBHah8

 

[RollerCoastr]

So depending on the model year, a 460 could have... off the top of my head, either Cat 3116, 3126, 3208, Cummins 8.3CTA or the CE engines. I think the QSMs might have been available later, but I forget. The CTA engines were stinky IMHO. I don't know about the CE. The 3116 and 3126 engines were just bulletproof and the 3208 will practically go forever. There's old 390 down the dock from me with 3208s and the boat runs great.

SeaRay listed the 3116 and 3126 as options in their spec sheets for the 460, but I casually shopped 460's for about a decade and never saw one equipped with 31's. They were either incredibly rare, or that was a mis-print. The reputation of the 3116 and 3126 has recovered now, but they were anything but bulletproof in the late 90's. SeaRay was yanking those engines out and replacing them in record numbers when the 460DA was introduced. It wasn't uncommon for the 3126's to be replaced with another bad one, which certainly had to have an impact on SeaRay's confidence in and supply OF that engine, which may explain why so few if any 460's received them.

The vast majority of 460DA's will have Cummins C's. Early models could have Cat 3208's, but most have CTAs. Later may have CE's and some of the very last ones produced had QSC's. (QSM's were never an option - the M is an entirely different engine: 11 liters instead of 8.3)

CTA's are cold smokers. CE's less so. QSC's are common rail and therefore house-trained.

Also available were two varieties of Volvo-Pentas, which coincided with VP's partnership with Detroit Diesel. (so you can find a 460 with Volvo engines wearing a Detroit Diesel badge!)

 

[SeaAyeOwe]

Funny, sent the broker an email yesterday afternoon :grin:. You can go look at it for me maybe? Not that I have looked but it's just over 1,000 nautical miles from where it is to my marina...

Ken - been over in the gulf islands for a few days so have not logged on, at Ganges right now (omg - this is why we toil away, just to enjoy this - what an incredible world we live in - I count my blessings every day).

Anyway in case naughtydog does not get over there - I sail back over the strait tomorrow (all being well - weather advisory issued this morning so may be a little messy for this little boat) and if I get time Friday I will take a lot at her. I leave Saturday for Argentina for a week (toil not fun) so it may be a week later if it does not happen Friday.

We are definitely hunting for an upgrade also - tho for us the 40-44 range is the target.

 

[HUMPH]

Very cool. I am interested in what condition the vinyl is in. Is there a funky smell in the cabin? (Many boats have this and would be a no way for the Admiral. She may be a bit picky but believes you can never get the funky smell out. The pictures show it well but I would hate to fly up there to be disappointed. It has happened before unfortunately.
Still not sure if we want to go this big but also not sure if the 460 is a big enough jump. One thing is I put a stop to the move to a new house on the water talk (at least for now). The house would require a total refit to meet standards and I don't have it in me...

 

[NaughtyDog]

So I dropped into the broker office after taking an unsuccessful look around the marina. The vessel in question is in Pender Harbour which is about 45 kn up the coast. Reportedly it is boat house kept and a "9/10". I know the brokers as they used to work at the local SeaRay dealership. here is their contact info if you would like to pursue. Sorry, best I can do.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[fc3]

The vast majority of 460DA's will have Cummins C's. Early models could have Cat 3208's, but most have CTAs. Later may have CE's and some of the very last ones produced had QSC's. (QSM's were never an option - the M is an entirely different engine: 11 liters instead of 8.3)

CTA's are cold smokers. CE's less so. QSC's are common rail and therefore house-trained.

Also available were two varieties of Volvo-Pentas, which coincided with VP's partnership with Detroit Diesel. (so you can find a 460 with Volvo engines wearing a Detroit Diesel badge!)

You're right, I meant to type QSC and ended up with QSM and somewhere along the line I edited out the Volvo 74s.

Thanks for catching the errors. My memory isn't, apparently, what it was.

 

[HUMPH]

So I dropped into the broker office after taking an unsuccessful look around the marina. The vessel in question is in Pender Harbour which is about 45 kn up the coast. Reportedly it is boat house kept and a "9/10". I know the brokers as they used to work at the local SeaRay dealership. here is their contact info if you would like to pursue. Sorry, best I can do.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks Dog! I have been in email conversation with Peter. Checking on a few things at marinas to see what the monthly but would be to berth something like this boat. 60' slip where I would like is over $1K per month if available.

 

[HUMPH]

Well, the admiral made an offer on a waterfront home with a dock. Seems like upgrading the boat is on hold. At least we will have all new cockpit vinyl when I pick her up on Friday evening! I changed a few things and added some color, should look pretty sweet! Thanks for the input and opinions.
Edit:?They received a higher offer and I won't counter! Happy days are here again, I don't have to move!

 

[Billfletcher]

Thanks Dog! I have been in email conversation with Peter. Checking on a few things at marinas to see what the monthly but would be to berth something like this boat. 60' slip where I would like is over $1K per month if available.

You could easily pay double that per month for a 60 foot slip down here, if you could even find one.

 

[HUMPH]

You could easily pay double that per month for a 60 foot slip down here, if you could even find one.

I know! I bought my boat in Newport Beach and it was crazy expensive there!

 

[BryanOnTheBay]

So the Admiral and I have been mildly discussing upsizing. We love our 410DA but we end up with a large number of people, she MUST feed the entire crowd and we are always packed like vagabonds. In the opinion of this wise (and sometimes wise a$$) group, is it worth going from a 410DA to a 460DA? We looked at a 510DA with 3406E CATs but it was very poorly maintained. We love the extra size of both staterooms and the storage in the cockpit. The galley is about the same. If not a 460, it would have to be a 510DA with the right engines or even a 540DA. I don't want 3196's so I am limited by that. If I don't upsize I may be forced to get a new house to make the Admiral happy. I don't really want to move the the place she is looking at does have a dock, hmmm....

Ken,

You know if you're get a bigger boat, she will just invite more people. It is like when the roads get expanded, more development is allowed until you are back to the same level of congestion.

if you WANT a bigger boat, get it, but if it is to bring more people along, just tell them to buy their own damn boats. :smt043

Bryan

 

[HUMPH]

So, the broker (a friend) for the 460 is calling me trying to get me to make an offer. The market out here is short of inventory and I would have the only 410 with CATs for sale on the West Coast. Mine happens to be in top shape. Reviewing recent sales out here, I could get my original investment and all upgrades if I sold it. I doubt I would need to broker it as people show interest quite often already while it's not for sale. Is the 460DA enough of an upgrade? I would love the hydraulic swim platform, hardtop, thruster and even the satellite may be nice. Room wise, we would get more room in the cockpit, Dancer cabin and a bit more in the forward stateroom. Heading home to ask the Admiral her thoughts one last time...

 

[fwebster]

In most respects, the 460 is a considerably bigger boat......and it is noticeable when you get on one. You will be a little disappointed in the performance as it is slower and burns more fuel if it has Cummins power. They handle well in tight spots, but don't have quite the torque you are used to. Your 410 and my 450 handle very much alike, i.e. run basically flat with no noticeable bow rise as power is applied, but the one difference on the 460 that I can't get comfortable with is the fact that I am blind for several seconds as the boat comes up out of the water on plane.....however, this may be due to 1.)I am shorter than you and 2.) we have a lot of traffic run by inexperienced seamen to contend with here as it is a tourist location.

As you have considered larger boats, the one thing about the 460DA that is easy to like is that it is a great boat for a couple to handle......much larger and everything from slip rent/availablilty, line handling, overhead for cleaning, detailing, bottom jobs, transient slips, etc. gets more complicated and more expensive.

If it is the right boat for you, you will know it with a brief sea trial. There are some gotchas on the earlier 460's so PM or email me when you get to the offer/survey stage.