In process of purchase 2005 Sea Ray 420 Sundancer (Bad engine oil test)

Discussion in 'Newbie Lounge - NEW' started by Scott’s 420, Nov 10, 2017.

  1. Scott’s 420

    Scott’s 420 New Member

    7
    Oct 24, 2017
    2005 Sea Ray 420 Sundancer
    Cummins 6 CTA
    The broker just sent me message that the engine oil test wasn't great.

    Quote: Not good news on Starboard Engine, but not as bad as it looks. Appears the engine overheated at some point and oil hasn't been changed since.

    Cummins 6 CTA, 715 hours on the engines.

    Should I pass on this boat?

    Thanks in advance,

    Scott Putnam
     
  2. Sprint7TW

    Sprint7TW Member SILVER Sponsor

    484
    Nov 30, 2011
    Indiana
    1998 310DA / Vintage 1976 StarCraft Montego.
    5.7 Mercruiser 260HP v drives
    Either pass or reduce the purchase price enough to cover the engine rebuild or replacement.
     
    Scott’s 420 likes this.
  3. JC3

    JC3 Active Member

    Oct 6, 2006
    Kentucky
    N/A
    N/A
    Scott, Post the results if you can. Many members will have a lot of experience with oil samples. Good luck, JC
     
  4. FootballFan

    FootballFan Well-Known Member GOLD Sponsor

    Jun 20, 2012
    Florida
    Marquis 59
    MTU Series 60
    Did you have a full engine survey by Cat Authorized service provider or just oil tests?
     
  5. Steve S

    Steve S Active Member SILVER Sponsor

    697
    Jun 5, 2007
    Northern IL.
    2000 400 Sedan Bridge with twin CAT 3116's

    2000 340 Sundancer - SOLD!
    210 Monaco 1987 - SOLD!
    Twin Caterpillar 3116's 350 HP straight drives
    FootballFan - he says they are Cummins engines - should be a Cummins dealer doing the survey not Cat.
     
  6. Scott’s 420

    Scott’s 420 New Member

    7
    Oct 24, 2017
    2005 Sea Ray 420 Sundancer
    Cummins 6 CTA
    After the oil test results the seller did admit that the engine did in fact over heat. Said the alarm went off and he immediately stopped the boat and replaced the bad hose. Had a spare. I did notice extra hoses in the engine room.
    The engine mechanic did find these minor issues that are being corrected now:

    · Engine sea water pumps are leaking and need to be replaced

    · Engine mount under starboard pump is rusty and needs to be cleaned and painted

    · The dripless packing system for the drive shafts are leaking and need to be repaired

    · The belts need to be replaced

    · Leaking under the heat exchangers needs to be repaired
     
  7. FootballFan

    FootballFan Well-Known Member GOLD Sponsor

    Jun 20, 2012
    Florida
    Marquis 59
    MTU Series 60
    My bad... fingers moving quicker than brain - once again.
     
    Steve S likes this.
  8. Ididntdoit

    Ididntdoit Well-Known Member

    Dec 5, 2007
    East Coast Florida
    300 Sundancer
    5.0MPI Bravo III
    I wouldn't buy it.......have you priced an overhaul? He obviously ran it more than he is letting on.....
     
  9. Scott’s 420

    Scott’s 420 New Member

    7
    Oct 24, 2017
    2005 Sea Ray 420 Sundancer
    Cummins 6 CTA
    Well the engines only have 700 hours. The mechanic estimated overhaul at $15K. That seemed low but I have no idea.

    Scott
     
  10. ZZ13

    ZZ13 Well-Known Member GOLD Sponsor

    Nov 25, 2009
    Lady's Island, SC
    2001 400 Sedan Bridge
    Cummins 450 Diamond
    I have the same engines. Everything you listed in recent post is standard operating procedure. Stuff leaks over time and this things need to be replaced. So those are no big deal.

    What in the oil test was out of spec that concerns you/your mechanic? I know many buyers of boats of these engines where the oil sample was not in spec everywhere, yet they still purchased and have had no long term issues. Hard to tell anything from one sample, in my opinion.

    Do engines run to 2900+ rpm at WOT in neutral? Do they reach 2600+ rpm at WOT in gear? Do engines start right up within a couple seconds? Are they free of black smoke? Do both turbos spool up at about the same rate? Do they hold 160-165 degrees regardless of rpms?

    If your survey mechanic is good he will probably give you the best advice.
     
    Scott’s 420 likes this.
  11. Scott’s 420

    Scott’s 420 New Member

    7
    Oct 24, 2017
    2005 Sea Ray 420 Sundancer
    Cummins 6 CTA
     
  12. Scott’s 420

    Scott’s 420 New Member

    7
    Oct 24, 2017
    2005 Sea Ray 420 Sundancer
    Cummins 6 CTA
    Thank you for the reply bill. The mechanic recommended passing on the boat or reducing the offer by $15K to cover a possible overhaul.

    This is what the oil test indicated:

    UNACCEPTABLE IRON AND ALUMINUM COMPARED TO PORT ENGINE. THIS COULD BE FROM PISTON SKIRTS AND CYLINDER WALLS OR BEARING / BUSHING WEAR. CHECK FOR LOCALIZED

    Action Required OVERHEATING. INSPECT FILTER.
     
  13. ZZ13

    ZZ13 Well-Known Member GOLD Sponsor

    Nov 25, 2009
    Lady's Island, SC
    2001 400 Sedan Bridge
    Cummins 450 Diamond
    Oh, I didn’t see you had posted the results. Now I recommend you delete that posting because I don’t think the seller wants you posting results with engine serial numbers publicly.

    If you really want to get a second expert opinion, call Seaboard Marine (sbmar.com) and ask their advice. Cummins marine engines are their thing. They may charge you for the consult nowadays, but worth it in my opinion.
     
    Scott’s 420 likes this.
  14. fr8dog

    fr8dog Active Member GOLD Sponsor

    247
    May 25, 2012
    Florida
    460 Sundancer 2005
    Cummins 480 CE
    2005 boat should have the 480CE model 6CTA. If it has been overheated and over propped you stand a good chance of dropping a valve seat. If you do proceed with the purchase consider replacing the head before that occurs.
     
    Scott’s 420 likes this.
  15. fwebster

    fwebster Well-Known Member TECHNICAL Contributor PLATINUM Sponsor

    Oct 6, 2006
    Middle Tennessee ; Panama City Beach, FL
    1996 450DA
    3116 Caterpillars
    This is not a solution for you since the boat is only under contract and you do not own it yet, but the standard practice for an out of spec oil sample is to change the oil and run 30-50 hours on the engine under normal conditions and then resample the oil and compare the 2 oil analyses. It is also advisable to cut open the removed oil filter and examine what is in the filter media, what type particles and how big they are.


    Other factors that might enter into your decision making process are:

    Oil sampling by a reputable lab yields a detailed report of the spectrum analysis of the oil submitted. "UNACCEPTABLE IRON AND ALUMINUM COMPARED TO PORT ENGINE" gives no data and only compares one engine to the other The oil sample should compare the sample to a standard for this type engine and this type lube oil. If you knew the actual ppm for iron and for aluminum, you would be in a lot better position to make a $25,000 gamble (not $15K).

    Cummins engines do not tolerate overheating......pistons are aluminum and they expand more than the iron block and cylinder liner when overheated. Heavy aluminum particles in the filter indicates significant piston wear. Worn pistons will rock as the engine revolves and wear will increase, not decrease.

    Sea Ray's systems monitor or Smartcrap is designed to alarm at 212˚F. If the engine were immediately brought to idle and turned off as the pervious owners says, there there should be no long term damage to the engine. Not knowing the actual oil sample results, we don't really know how much damage was done.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
  16. Scott’s 420

    Scott’s 420 New Member

    7
    Oct 24, 2017
    2005 Sea Ray 420 Sundancer
    Cummins 6 CTA
    Thank you for the extremely knowledgeable replay Frank! I thought the 15K was a very low number.

    The iron (Fe) on starboard engine was 99PPM compared to 32PPM Port.

    The aluminum (Al) on starboard engine was 130PPM compared to 2PPM Port.

    I am not very knowledgeable in this area but this seems like a very large variance.

    Thanks again

    Scott
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
  17. NotHerDecision

    NotHerDecision Well-Known Member GOLD Sponsor

    Jun 28, 2016
    Houston, Texas
    2001 Sea Ray 460 Sundancer
    2014 Seadoo 155 LTD
    2105 Seadoo 130 SE
    2013 Mercury Dinghy
    Cummins 6CTA 8.3L
    Just a thought but why not take another sample and send it in? It’s worth the trouble in my book.
     
  18. fwebster

    fwebster Well-Known Member TECHNICAL Contributor PLATINUM Sponsor

    Oct 6, 2006
    Middle Tennessee ; Panama City Beach, FL
    1996 450DA
    3116 Caterpillars
    Scott,

    I made the following comment to a friend in Florida earlier today: "I am frequently amazed at how small the Sea Ray world sometimes is".

    Is the name on the transom of the 420DA "TexCote"? If so, then the previous owner took good care of the boat and the marina where the boat is now has done most of his service and repair work. They are top notch and second to none. I've had boats stored there for about 30 years. In that length of time, I have never yet had to call them back to tell them they didn't fix it, or you didn't do everything I asked for, and the boat is always so clean that you never know there was a mechanic on it. Treasure Island and their employees are the only reason I can live 450 miles from the boat 1/2 the time.

    Good luck with the purchase.
     
  19. peterkvs

    peterkvs Member GOLD Sponsor

    500
    Nov 11, 2012
    Guntersville, Alabama
    400 Sundancer 1999
    3116 Cats, 1000 hours
    In my book this screams LACK OF ROUTINE MAINTENANCE. Diesel engines almost never died from wearing out, they almost always die from neglect. Who drives around with new spare hoses?!?
     
  20. fwebster

    fwebster Well-Known Member TECHNICAL Contributor PLATINUM Sponsor

    Oct 6, 2006
    Middle Tennessee ; Panama City Beach, FL
    1996 450DA
    3116 Caterpillars
    Pete,

    I know the boat in question here and the owner, while not that mechanical, does maintain it, mostly thru the marina. His interest has changed and he hasn't used the boat a lot this summer and just recently listed it for sale......he is shopping for a go-fast boat. It is a one owner boat and the owner had a custom boat house built behind his house just for the 420 in 2005 when the boat was delivered.


    Who drives around with spare hoses (& belts)? ...........Me

    Remember this is a salt water area....a dripping seawater pump will rust an engine mount in about a week........and we are frequently 50+ miles off shore out of range of Seatow or even cell phones.....so a lot of coastal boaters carry spares for the replaceables and especially belts and formed hoses where a universal hose or duct tape won't work.
     
    GoFastr likes this.

Share This Page

Show Sidebar