How much is "a lot" when it comes to engine hours?

[KnotCruisin]

Hi guys,

new guy here, trying to get into a 400DB over the next 18 months or so.

When you look at these types of boats and engines, what would you consider "a lot" in regards to engine (and gen) hours? Most of the listings I'm currently looking at have around 1,000 hours on them, how much would you consider "too much"?

Thanks!

 

[bahamabreisus]

Gas or Diesel?

 

[KnotCruisin]

I'm looking for Diesel but would be interested in opinions about both

 

[wrvond]

I'd be more concerned with extremely low hours than I would high hours on a properly maintained engine.
Engines that don't get run are subject to internal corrosion and dried gaskets.

 

[NotHerDecision]

I was like you not long ago and wanted a definitive answer, but here is the absolute truth. (I'll leave the Gas engines to others)

Diesel engines rarely wear out if used regularly and maintained. There are commercial boats with 20K hours on the same engines, but... and it's a BIG but... 2 truths remain.

1. I would argue most diesel engines are not used regularly, as in each week and starting for 5 minutes doesn't count.
2. Most diesel engines are not properly maintained. If you look at the commercial industry, they do preventive maintenance on a schedule and use the boats daily, so any issue that pop up are corrected.

A great article to read would be marine age http://www.sbmar.com/articles/marine-age-the-real-age-of-a-marine-diesel-engine/

So although this is not the answer you are looking for, I feel it is as close to the truth as you will get. The average pleasure boater (with Diesels) will put about 100 hrs/year on the boat, so looking at it in terms of that you can do the math by the year the boat was put into service. I would be MUCH more inclined to look at the maintenance history, your survey results, and other's opinions on this site. Take someone like Frank Webster... If his boat has 4000 hours and another one had 350 hours and I know Frank, I would buy his boat without a doubt! A diesel engine not being used is deteriorating faster then one being used.

I know you didn't ask this directly, but when searching for a boat your best bet is to be open and honest on this site, share what is important regarding style, engines, options...etc. There are amazing people on this forum who will answer you and give you awesome information. With the right information, someone will steer you to what suits you best or at least narrow it down to a couple models. This site doesn't bash others, or reccommend certain vendors, dealers... just to make a buck. It's full of real boaters who actually own and use boats who will give you accurate and honest information.

Hope this helps a little!

Josh

 

[bahamabreisus]

I agree with all above, have proper survey and engine survey done.

 

[mquiet]

My cats have over 3000 hours and run great. Maintenance is key. I run boat weekly til November then run every 3rd week at the least until march.


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[KnotCruisin]

Thanks so much for the feedback guys, really helps me gettin' my mind wrapped around the "age" question when looking for my boat

 

[swaterhouse]

For any engine maintenance is key.

When I look at boats I look for two things, I want to see at least 35 hours per year but not more than 300. I also look at how many hours the engines have. High engine hours and/or high generator hours shows the boat has been used a lot, which may mean it is more worn out than one that has 100 or so hours per year.

The low hours bother me because its clear they don't put the boat as a high priority in thier life, when that happens you have to wonder what things may have been neglected.

Engine hours alone wont tell much, my first year with the boat we put on just under 90 hours. Last year we didn't do as many long runs and stayed places longer so we put just under 50 hours on engines but spent just as many nights on the boat. The generator hours were nearly identical between the two years.

 

[seabud]

Another factor

How long do you intend to keep the boat? Do you need to consider what the next buyer will think? I was pretty sure my current boat was not going to be my last so I focused my search on something I could sell in the next 2-3 years with less than a thousand hours. Next time I may not narrow my search.
Also look at the difference between the generator and the mains. Other systems will wear too.


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[fwebster]

There is a general opinion/misconception among inexperienced buyers that anything over 1000 hours is a high time boat. So, are you a buyer or a seller? A seller must sell over the engine time and an astute buyer uses it as negotiating leverage. Look at the average hours per year on t he boat rather than total time and the picture becomes clearer.......a 10 year old boat with 1000 engine hours is still just 100 hours per year, which is pretty low time in our neck of the woods where people use their boats 12 months a year.

I met a charter captain about 15 years ago. He has a custom 48ft. charter boat with Caterpillar 375hp 3208 engines. It was built in a late 80's and still fishes 7 days a week from March to November. I saw him last week at the boat yard and he now has 22,500 hours on the old Cats. He seriously maintains the engines and has, so far has replaced a few injectors, a fuel pump, a few alternators and several seawater pumps. His oil samples still come back "Normal wear metals readings; no problem with this sample." Engine hours doesn't tell the whole story without a service record to prove the maintenance. Look at the service history of the engines........if the maintenance history isn't available, then keep shopping.

On the other side of the question, a low time recreational boat usually means a floating condo and an owner who probably isn't aware of and doesn't care about the maintenance of his engines. Deferred maintenance can be horribly expensive to catch up. Depending upon the make and design of the engines, the cost to bring the maintenance current can be a few thousand $$ to well into 5 figure money. Since "NotHerDecision" mentioned my boat ........and thanks for the compliment Josh.....I have about 1500 hours on Caterpillar engines, the oil sample wear metals and particle count still read like new engines, and if the boat were for sale, the new owner would have $0 exposure for deferred maintenance.

In the final analysis, engine hours, a lot or a few, really relates to risk and there are better ways to measure risk than just engine hours. In a pleasure boat, engine hours and a service record, coupled with an engine survey and oil/coolant analysis will give you a very complete picture of your future risk.

 

[KnotCruisin]

Thanks everyone for the thorough replies!


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[Zach312]

This is something I have significant concerns on as we search for our next boat. It will by no means be our last boat. For example we have been looking for a 48 sundancer. I took a look at all of the 48 sundancers for sale (years 2012-2005) Average hours was 710, high was 1400 and low was 192. We boat about 100 hours/year so I wouldn't want to buying a boat with 1400 hours as in 5-7 years when we sell it will be at or near 2,000. We are targeting 1,000 hours or less but good maintenance records will be a large factor as well.

Another factor

How long do you intend to keep the boat? Do you need to consider what the next buyer will think? I was pretty sure my current boat was not going to be my last so I focused my search on something I could sell in the next 2-3 years with less than a thousand hours. Next time I may not narrow my search.
Also look at the difference between the generator and the mains. Other systems will wear too.


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[NotHerDecision]

I would put engine hours near the bottom of my list. There are so many other things that come into play. If you want to avoid losing money at sale time then buy a house and. It a boat . Really it's about the right boat for you, how much deferred maintenance are you willing to accept, and how much sweat equity versus cash can you spend. There are no right answers but lots of opinions and everyone has Tom's range for different levels. The hardest part is not. Coming emotionally attached and stepping back and putting the details on paper and making a decision.

Josh

 

[Ray O]

Lots of good advice. I made my purchase on mine with a little less than 1000HRS, I looked at some with 400 or less you could tell the owners didn't use the boat much. I spoke with lots of owners/brokers and some may have even not visited their boat once or twice a year in the last few years of ownership. I asked lots of questions. On low hour boats you will find the owners put most of the hours on the first few years and have decide to sell because they just are not using it anymore. Most of those have differed maintenance. Get a good survey negotiate price accordingly and don't worry about the hours as much. I got to meet the owner a coupe time before closing and I asked plenty of question. From lurking here and other places and from my own purchases I can tell you most buyers spend and average of about $10,000 after purchase on misc things. Good luck shopping it can be stressful but it can be lots of fun too. Don't get in a hurry.
Ray

 

[k9medic]

Engine hours was a concern for me when I bought my first big boat. I have a 2005 Yamaha Jet boat that has around 400 hours and from the computer I can tell how long it was run at each RPM.

Getting into the CATs I was concerned since I had no idea how hard the engines were run. My CATs has 1871 hours when I purchased it in Feb. of 2014. That averages out to 116 hours per year at the time. The boat history was important to me as well. When it was purchased new it did the great loop and then went to TN and sat as a party boat for a few years and was bank repo'ed. Some of the older surveys did not look pretty when it came to maintenance. The last owner took a big hit on repairs as Frank mentioned since it was all deferred maintenance.

I now have just north of 2240 hours on the engines. That is about 123 hours a year. I had to delay some stuff on the engines due to cost but I just got the 2000hr CAT engine service done and the mechanic said everything was in order and he had very little to adjust. I also do oil analysis and they come back great.

 

[Dono10]

I was just pondering this as well. Looking at gas powered boats i stumbled upon a 7.4 horizon powered 370 express with 3300 hrs. Most of it trolling for salmon on the lake mi. Would you consider # of rpm's turned in a motors life as part of the equasion? The numbers are big but if you average 1000 rpm while trolling the motors spin about 3.6 million per hour. If your into cruising places and average 2800 rpm it over 10 million rpm per hour. So if maintenance were equal a boat used at slow rpm with 3000 hrs should have about the same wear as a boat that runs higher rpms with 1/3 the hours.

 

[BillK2632]

I don't get too excited over high hours on a boat engine, or high miles on a car for that matter. I know from experience that maintenance is key and I well cared for gasoline engine (I can't speak about diesel) can last 1000's of hours in a boat and 100's of thousands miles in a car. I personally have had a boat with over 2000hrs that was running perfectly and no major repairs, just maintenance and several cars with over 150k miles. All that said, 3300hrs is getting up there for a gasoline marine engine. At that age you have to expect something could break regardless of the maintenance, but properly maintained, there is still a lot of life in it.

Another thing to think about and while a car engine runs different than a marine engine - but take a car with 150k miles and figure the average speed was 50mph, that's roughly 3000hrs. My Lexus has 145k on it and still runs perfectly, but I would not be totally surprised if something broke.

 

[Ike]

As for gas engines, I will give you an example. The 1972 merc 165 in my Sea Ray 190 is 45 years old. Has never been over hauled. Essential maintenance has always been done (except for when it sat on the previous owners trailer for 10 years.....ACK!) It runs fine. An engine that is cared for and maintained will last a long time.

I ran a Coast Guard maintenance facility back in the 80's and one of our tasks was overhauling engines. We did marine diesels at anywhere from 1000 to to 2000 hours, but these engines were run almost constantly, and very hard. Used and abused. However we also had diesel auxiliary generators at lighthouses that hadn't been over hauled in 20 years. Those engines ran all the time 24/7 except when shut down for maintenance.

So what has been said here is very true. It depends on two things. How much did the previous owners use the boat and how they used it, and did they do the required maintenance. A diesel can last a long time if taken care of, not forever, but almost. So ask for records. If they don't have them and you are still interested get an engine survey. It the survey is good, ok, If it isn't walk away because re-powering the boat will probably cost as much as the boat.