Hey Hampton!!!! John!!!!!

islandhopper00

islandhopper00

Active Member
Jan 4, 2007
2,670
Lake Norman (Denver) NC
Boat Info
240 Sundancer
Engines
5.0L 260hp, BIII outdrive
In a thread I can't seem to remember, you gave a run down about flying your military fighter jet. Something about flying at high speed and so many miles in this direction, using that throttle setting, ect, ect.

Well I was wondering if you would recount some more stories like that? I enjoyed reading it very much. Will ya, will ya, huh?
 
I remember that post -- wasn't he talking about doing fly-overs for football games or something and timing them to the national anthem?

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Tonka Boater said:
I remember that post -- wasn't he talking about doing fly-overs for football games or something and timing them to the national anthem?

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I don't remember the whole situation, but it was cool to hear the jargon of the industry.
Kinda reminded me of the movie Top Gun. Oooo...I didn't mean to say that. lol. Maybe a better analogy would be the movie, Fire Fox, with Clint Eastwood. The scene when he is flying low, supersonic, and the water from the sea is being throw into the air. Cool!

I guess the writing takes me back to a time when I was in the Navy and I helped launch helo's from our ship. A fun time, when I look back.
 
Hey John,

Can you share a real life story that parallels the movie “Independence Day” where you rescue the world from attacking aliens?

That would be totally cool!
 
I don't know where John is today, but I think that exchange was about some AF pilots who ejected over the central Gulf and John happened to be up that day. You might try searching for that subjeect.
 
I'm back. Just shot down a few alien starfighters and had to debrief with the inter-galatic planetary association - bunch of bleeding heart liberals, those guys.

I've posted on here about the timing for official flyovers, probably the search and rescue mission over the Gulf (mex) early last year, and there's a relatively new one hidden under some other thread title (looking for link) after I hijacked the thread.

Flyby's: Page 3 http://clubsearay.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13818&highlight=timing

Bird Strikes: http://clubsearay.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14869&highlight=collision&page=4

Flying Backwards: http://clubsearay.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22096&highlight=leaf&page=2 (See page 1 for the pain it took for me to get there)
 
I can't believe this. John must be on a real ego trip because he had a thread started with his *NAME* in the title. What kind of BS is that? This should not be allowed. He's just Mr. ugly Sundancer crowny man.

Some site you are running here Jim.
 
At least he does not get hurt when he shows the kids how to play with the toys like somebody else we know.(Grin) Gary have you been showing the kids how to run the go-carts lately?
Now if we could get them to write a book together that would be an interesting read.
 
Funny Stuff. Standing by for incoming.

Still sweating, sitting in my flight gear (had to do a gradesheet for a graduation tomorrow morning), after raging low altitude for 1 hour and 12 minutes over the flat lands, rivers, trees between Pt St Joe, Carabelle, Blountstown, and W to almost Hwy 231, North Florida. After some 2-ship tactical formation (line abreast (side by side), 1.5 - 2 NM spacing, co-altitude, working radars and visual look-out very hard) at 450 knots indicated, 500 feet, multiple coordinated turns, practice getting the timing right to end up right back in position after 45, 90, and 180 degree turns, we split and went to opposite points for 1 v 1, low altitude tactical intercepts.

I was up in the North near Blountstown. He was in the South over Carabelle. Every time I went back to my point for another intercept, I'd rage by a factory on the South side of town, 500 feet, 600 knots indicated. I always pulled it to idle as I screamed by to minimize jet noise, but then again, air getting out of the way of a 650mph F-15 makes an awful screaming noise anyway. We practiced intercepts with him defending against radar missiles, then pitching back in for visual fights initiated in the weeds. Then we practiced with me defending against radar missiles by diving, turning, and causing his radar to lose lock against the ground where my jet was "hiding," then me pitching back in to take heat-seaking missile shots in the face against him as he was trying to find me again with his Mark-1 eyeballs and APG-63 V0 radar. Son, you died because you were stupid.

At the end of the rage fest, we cruised a quick circle around Cape San Blas, Pt St Joe, and Mexico beach in spread formation (1/2 mile line-abreast), and finally up initial for a few quick, aggressive overhead patterns/mid-field closed pull-ups for some young visitors in the tower. Now it's time to head to the "Heritage" Room for a cool one and a debrief. After all, my student is being re-qualled in the F-15, it's his last ride in training, and he wouldn't be listening anyway. Check back in later.
 
Let me know when/if you do some mountain radar evasion training up here in the North GA mountains. We have a military training route that is to the ground in the area. Can't remember the IR number off the top of my head.
 
Hampton said:
Funny Stuff. Standing by for incoming.

Still sweating, sitting in my flight gear (had to do a gradesheet for a graduation tomorrow morning), after raging low altitude for 1 hour and 12 minutes over the flat lands, rivers, trees between Pt St Joe, Carabelle, Blountstown, and W to almost Hwy 231, North Florida. After some 2-ship tactical formation (line abreast (side by side), 1.5 - 2 NM spacing, co-altitude, working radars and visual look-out very hard) at 450 knots indicated, 500 feet, multiple coordinated turns, practice getting the timing right to end up right back in position after 45, 90, and 180 degree turns, we split and went to opposite points for 1 v 1, low altitude tactical intercepts.

I was up in the North near Blountstown. He was in the South over Carabelle. Every time I went back to my point for another intercept, I'd rage by a factory on the South side of town, 500 feet, 600 knots indicated. I always pulled it to idle as I screamed by to minimize jet noise, but then again, air getting out of the way of a 650mph F-15 makes an awful screaming noise anyway. We practiced intercepts with him defending against radar missiles, then pitching back in for visual fights initiated in the weeds. Then we practiced with me defending against radar missiles by diving, turning, and causing his radar to lose lock against the ground where my jet was "hiding," then me pitching back in to take heat-seaking missile shots in the face against him as he was trying to find me again with his Mark-1 eyeballs and APG-63 V0 radar. Son, you died because you were stupid.

At the end of the rage fest, we cruised a quick circle around Cape San Blas, Pt St Joe, and Mexico beach in spread formation (1/2 mile line-abreast), and finally up initial for a few quick, aggressive overhead patterns/mid-field closed pull-ups for some young visitors in the tower. Now it's time to head to the "Heritage" Room for a cool one and a debrief. After all, my student is being re-qualled in the F-15, it's his last ride in training, and he wouldn't be listening anyway. Check back in later.
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HOT DOG, I like reading that stuff! You jet jockys have a language all your own. Cool, very cool. Not sure I understand all what I read, but sounds awesome! Thanks man.

Oh...don't listen to Gary, he's just jealouse his 15 minutes of fame maybe fleeting! LOL.
 
Four Suns said:
I can't believe this. John must be on a real ego trip because he had a thread started with his *NAME* in the title. What kind of BS is that? This should not be allowed. He's just Mr. ugly Sundancer crowny man.

Some site you are running here Jim.
Click to expand...

Well Gary...all I can say is, VACATION dude! We have all been itching for a boat trip from you pal. lol.

Oh and don't you call Mr. Hampton's boat ugly!
 
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Good News. Now I show up on Google (due to this thread). I don't care, though. We were joking about the guy next to me having his bio posted by his home base, and now he shows up on google, so, I checked mine, and it's #1 from this thread.

So, not to be too egotistical, 2 days ago I flew as ACM Bandit against 2 F-22 Raptors. ACM = Air Combat Maneuvering. For the Navy, it means any engagement involving multiple aircraft (or something like that). For Air Force, it means 2 Blue Air (friendly) aircraft being attacked by one adversary at a time, though they can pile on. Anything more than that: 2v2, 2v3, 4v4, 4vX, 8vX; and we call it Tactical Intercepts if we're concentrating on the long range radar targeting and missile shots, or, Air Combat Training if we take the long range into visual ranges and turn/burn at the merge beyond 180 degrees of turn.

So, my job Wednesday was to take off alone, make my way out to the over-water warning area, get all of my checks done (Fuel Checks, Gun-safe Check (trigger check), CMD Checks (Counter-Measure Dispensers ie Chaff/Flares), G-awareness (2 180 degree high G turns to check aircraft equipment and personnel ability to stay awake during high G maneuvering, and gets the heart rate/strenth up for at least 15 minutes), and get ready to meet the F-22's who were 5 minutes behind me.

As they entered the airspace from the West, I turned back to meet them and watched their 2 X G-awareness turns, then flowed beneath them to the South side of their formation as they proceeded East toward the middle of the airspace.

All of this mission's fights were to begin in a relatively tight formation, with all jets about 2 miles apart. At the F-22 Flight Lead's direction, his wingman and I turned a prescribed number of degrees away from eachother, while he proceeded straight ahead. At the desired range, he called "Turn in, Fight's on." He and his wingman turned toward me as I turned more aggressively (IAW Brief), met the lead F-22 head on with about 440 knots, and turned into him at moderate G (no afterburner to keep the fight predictable and relatively loose as opposed to extremely high G which would probably degrade into a vertical/spiraling fight toward the ocean). The goal is to allow the student in the 2nd F-22 to practice entering a mature dog fight, discern who is who, get into a position to take a visual shot, and do so at such a time that the missile will not have the opportunity to switch track to his flight lead or put his flight lead into a position to fly through the fireball after an ill-timed shot. We turned into eachother as planned, each digging down low in an attempt to take advantage of gravity in place of after-burning thrust (almost defeating the intent, but hey, if you're not cheating, you're not trying).

After a couple of spiraling, descending leafs, the F-22 Flight Lead observed that the desired learning objectives of the fight had been achieved (or could not be), and called for the "Knock it Off," to which we replied in order. We again flowed into the perfect, line abreast formation separated out by 1.5 - 2.0NM as we climbed back up for the second fight. If these sound a little boring, it's only because they were.

The second set up was the same as the first, with one caveat. The first merge, where I turned with the 1st F-22 and we both attempted to out-turn the other by maneuvering towards eachother's six o'clock, is called a 2-circle fight. When we go back to debrief using Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation (Big, fancy debriefing theaters with the war on big-screens on the front wall - They can be viewed from top, side, God's eye, pilot views........), the fight will look like 2 distinct circles overlapping somewhat in the middle. This, second fight, is intended to be a 1-circle fight. A one circle fight develops any time one of the two fighters who merge head on decides to turn away from the other fighter instead of doing the natural move, which is to turn hard behind the guy to try to get into a position to kill him. When viewed from above, both fighters track around a single circle in opposite directions.

In the first fight, a 2-circle fight, it's common for both fighters to track around their own circle at a speed which gives them the highest turn rate in degrees per second. The F-15 does this best at about 472 knots indicated. The problem is, at that speed (other than sustaining almost 8 G's for an almost infinite period of time), the turn circle is quite large. Such a large turn circle allows your opponent to turn tight and take a face shot across the circle. Fly too slow, and your opponent gets better performance (more air in the front, more gas is dialed up, and more thrust is produced) and races around the circle into a position behind you (after about 3 X 360 degree circles) and puts you out of your misery. It's called a rate fight. You fly your jet as precisely as you can at a high angular rate without giving up too much turning room, while constantly following a disciplined grunting/breathing pattern to stay awake, monitoring altitude available below you, and adjusting your fight profile as appropriate depending on what your adversary does. What does he do? The same thing, or, take it vertical at a subsequent merge, or, reverse turn direction at the merge to go single circle.

So, that brings us back to the single circle. Back to the original set up, with both F-22's pointing at me and closing at about 1000 mph each. This time, I dust off the lead F-22, fake a turn toward his six, then abruptly reverse my roll 180 degrees - not into his flight path, but 180 degrees away to force a single circle fight. The intent is for the student to enter a close aboard, low-speed fight between his flight lead and an adversary, figure out who's who, maneuver into a WEZ (Weapon Engagement Zone), and employ weapons at such a time that it kills the adversary yet doesn't threaten his flight lead as previously discussed. The difference this time is that we are close aboard in the same piece of sky maneuvering aggressively up and over into eachother's six o'clock, though still not using afterburner to keep it a little tame for the new guy to be able to get in for a shot. I'm certain that the F-22 flight lead was keeping an eye on his student more than he was on my jet (as briefed), because I didn't have to work too hard to end up directly behind him after a full-rudder, idle power lag roll to his six-o'clock. At some point during this act, while slamming my head around the cockpit to track the student and the close F-22, I pulled my comm cord out and missed the termination of this fight. I thought it was too easy to stay behind him! Once again, the desired learning objectives for the fight had been achieved (or were no longer able to be achieved), so the F-22 flight lead Knocked it Off.

The third (and final, as it turns out) fight for the day involved the same set up as the first two, but instead of turning into or away from the 1st F-22 at the merge, I was cleared to maneuver full up (Afterburner as desired) with the 2nd F-22 to merge, who was the student. The intent of this fight is to be sure that the student hasn't forgotten how to fight 1 v 1 (BFM - Basic Fighter Maneuvers). It's also my opportunity to kick an F-22's A55 with little effort expended.

More to come
 
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Continued

During a high aspect fight (merging head on), there are certain tricks one can employ in order to gain a huge advantage at the very first merge that can not be overcome, even in a prolonged fight, if he lives long enough to prolong it. If you are ever fighting a guy in a visual fight, and you're not sure what your best move is, put your lift vector on the guy and pull. This means to roll your jet so that a line (plane) drawn right out of the top of the jet from the nose, to the top of the canopy, on back to the tail is oriented to pass right through his jet. Pulling means to increase back pressure on the stick straight back to the lap (without breaking the jet in 1/2). What will this do? If he is approaching a position to shoot you, it creates the most angles possible for him to have to contend with. It will also increase the closure between your jet and his which will minimize the time he has available to get a shot. If he is out in front of you, it will put your nose out in front of him to put you into a position to employ weapons. If you are passing 180 degrees out in a neutral pass, it will place your jet in a position of advantage as the fight develops into the afformentioned 2-circle rate fight.

3 rules to visual fighting: Lose sight, lose fight (obvious, but not so easy to maintain sometimes); Maneuver in relation to the bandit (you may have a gameplan, but, you have to constantly modify it depending on what your adversary chooses to do); Energy versus nose position (Pull the stick to the lap and look like you're winning, but if you don't kill him how, he will probably have an energy advantage to gain the advantage over time.)

Let's go back to the initial response: Put your lift vector on him and pull! Picture merging directly with an adversary, 180 degrees out (head on), where you are below him and he is directly above you. Your best move is to pull straight up and over the top directly behind his jet. As you pull up, your jet slows. The F-15 is nose heavy and has ZERO LIMITATIONS regarding burying the stick in your lap to extremely high angles of attack (deep stall on the wing). So, if you slow down upside down with your nose up high, you can pull the stick in your lap and rapidly rotate your jet down to point at the bad guy.

Take the vantage point of the guy directly over you. What's his best move? Roll upside down, orient his lift vector right at you and pull. So, he's going 440 kts, and is going to go straight down at a solid 9 G's and turn back up to point at you before you shoot him? No - ain't gonna happen. Many reasons: 1) Given the chance, I'll dig down before the merge and sucker him into merging with me lower than he had planned, faster than he had planned. If he hits the merge too fast and he rolls over and performs a split S, a few limitations occur. I suckered him down low, and now he's within one turn diameter of the ground/training floor. If he rolls over and pulls, he can't pull out before hitiing the ground/floor and blowing up (guttsiest move I ever saw, Mav). If he did have enough room below him, but was fast, he can't turn tight because the jet is likely to not slow down, but actually speed up with gravity. Also, at those fast speeds, his turn circle is big. In order to not get too fast, he'll pull his power back reducing his energy for later in the fight. The way I teach my students, if you sucker him down and merge below him, the fight is already over - the rest is just going through the motions.

Occassionally, I'll beat a guy a few times in a row using this technique, then I'll let him take the low ground. Instead of getting suckered down with him, I'll stay high and deplete some energy, then lead turn the bejesus out of him in the vertical in full afterburner which will force him to start to maneuver defensively before he gets into his game plan of lead turning me up hill like I normally do.

So, let's get back to the third engagement with the F-22's. I turn in and am pointing straight at #1 (the first F-22) while taking 2 heat shots in the face on #2 just 2 miles behind him. In war, I'd turn with the first guy while the second guy blew up. Wednesday, it was my job to dust off the first F-22 and fight the second. As I dusted off #1 (close pass, 1000mph, opposite directions) I flowed toward #2 whose nose was up high, looking for an easy entry into our fight. With his nose off, there was no heat threat from him (no heat-seaking missile shot) so I lit the afterburners, pushed over for rapid acceleration from 440 to 500 knots in a few seconds, and gained vertical turning room below him so I could initiate a maximum G turn up under him toward a highly offensive entry as discussed above. As I initiate my turn increasing from 7 to 9 G's as I slowed through 400 knots, the student calls "Blind." He lost sight (and therefore, the fight) and so the flight lead "Knocked it Off" for a third time. After that, when setting up for another attempt at the third itteration, the student's anti-G suit apparently was working up to speed, so they cleared me off for my own PFA (personnel F'n agenda - cleared off to do WHATEVER I WANTED - which I did - and it was good - and there was much rejoicing!).

Anti-G suit - Fast Pants - Speed Jeans: In the F-15, they look like Chaps - They have bladders against your abdominal muscles, calves, and thighs. As you pull G's, the weight of a silver button next to the seat (test button) literally pulls it down to open the valve and allow bleed air from the engines to inflate the bladders on your pants so you can strain your muscles against the G-suit and help force blood up out of your legs and stomach so that your upper body (brain) has some blood from which to live. Without the straining, blood rapidly flows down hill and you'll lose consciousness in about 5 seconds (leftover O2 in the brain gets used up in 5 seconds).
 
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Yee Haw!
I could only imagine the thought process going on during all this. 1000mph passes, ground training deck, afterburners, whew. Alot going on.
Now your students can read how you kill them, if they owned a Sea Ray and joined this club!
Thanks John!
And yes, I read the whole thing, every word. Probably read it again!
 
islandhopper00 said:
Yee Haw!
I could only imagine the thought process going on during all this. 1000mph passes, ground training deck, afterburners, whew. Alot going on.
Now your students can read how you kill them, if they owned a Sea Ray and joined this club!
Thanks John!
And yes, I read the whole thing, every word. Probably read it again!
Click to expand...

Thanks, man. I don't expect anyone to read it, but it's there if you care.
 
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