Hatch re-bed with Butyl Tape

[Tough Life]

I'm curious if anyone has re-bedded their hatches using butyl tape. I found a thread from 4 years ago where a CSR member had just re-bed his with butyl and he commented "so far so good". Wondering if anyone else has given it a shot and whether or not you recommend it?

 

[fwebster]

Do you remember back about 10-12 years ago there was a huge uproar about a bunch of Knoxville produced boats…..280's, 310's 330's, etc. with wet coring in the deck assemblies?

Butyl tape was the reason. In a "value engineering (cost reduction) move, some engineer with engineering but not nearly enough boat building experience changed the installation procedure from silicone bedding to butyl tape and it didn't withstand the normal flex in a boat, leaks and soon, rotted cores followed.

Just take the time, do it right…..and clean up the mess because if you do it right, it is messy.

 

[Tough Life]

Thanks Frank. That is enough for me to stick with a more conventional sealant. I've yet to use butyl tape but have heard good stories about it in other applications. I guess it has its limitations, as with most things.

 

[Paul_P]

"Just take the time, do it right…..and clean up the mess because if you do it right, it is messy".

Is this with the Butyl Tape?.

In my opinion - i think that Butyl Tape - when applied correctly -would be a superior product for re-bedding compared to all the Sealants , adhesives , caulks and silicone's which are available. I will be re-bedding my Bow Rail this winter and plan on using tape.

10-12 years ago when this ( butyl-Tape )was used in a production environment - was it applied correctly? Or did it fail because of the tape being an inferior product itself?.

Using Butyl Tape correctly ( really any sealant ) is not a hurry up type of job. I think re-sealing is something which needs to be done correctly and with some patience for it to be effective..

I am new to boating - i bought my first boat in the fall of 13'. I am not new to things mechanical and so far what i have found that with all the different types of Sealants , adhesives , caulks and silicone's offered , it is almost a full time job in deciding which is best. Procedure used in application is a big part of the success of re-bedding.

Paul

 

[1956olds]

The problem is as Frank described ,too much flex of the hatch opening causing the butyl to lose contact with the aluminum frame and the gelcoat substrate.It just dosent stay attached,not enough adhesion properties for the application.Now rebedding a stancion is different as the holes are so much smaller they dont stretch like a hatch opening when the boat twists and flexes going over waves or plowing into them.Also the butyl dose not dry so instead of streaching when the hull flexes it just gets squeezed out of the pinch that it is trying to seal.

 

[fwebster]

"Just take the time, do it right…..and clean up the mess because if you do it right, it is messy".

Is this with the Butyl Tape?.

In my opinion - i think that Butyl Tape - when applied correctly -would be a superior product for re-bedding compared to all the Sealants , adhesives , caulks and silicone's which are available. I will be re-bedding my Bow Rail this winter and plan on using tape.

10-12 years ago when this ( butyl-Tape )was used in a production environment - was it applied correctly? Or did it fail because of the tape being an inferior product itself?.

Using Butyl Tape correctly ( really any sealant ) is not a hurry up type of job. I think re-sealing is something which needs to be done correctly and with some patience for it to be effective..

I am new to boating - i bought my first boat in the fall of 13'. I am not new to things mechanical and so far what i have found that with all the different types of Sealants , adhesives , caulks and silicone's offered , it is almost a full time job in deciding which is best. Procedure used in application is a big part of the success of re-bedding.

Paul

No the mess is when you put enough bedding under the hatch lip it squeezes out and you need to clean it up when the hatch is set.

Yes, the wet cores were traced to using butyl tape as a bedding medium.

I don't know if it was applied correctly or not. I just know the stuff leaked and ruined the front deck on a lot of boats.

You are, of course, free to your opinion, and use tape is you choose, but keep in mind that the risk here isn't the $6 tube of caulking to a few feet of butyl tape. A core repair is very expensive and on your boat would probably exceed the present value of the entire boat. Where the cored portions of my boat are concerned, I will use a tried and proven bedding compound and let somebody else theorize and do the R&D.

 

[dpmulvey]

So let me ask this. Should the coring have been removed at the concerned area and filled with a glass type filler or 5200 like material prior to the hatch being installed in order to preclude the rotting in the first place?

 

[Paul_P]

If moisture can not reach the coring material - it would never rot. It should be sealed even before any bedding product is applied.

 

[Lazy Daze]

So let me ask this. Should the coring have been removed at the concerned area and filled with a glass type filler or 5200 like material prior to the hatch being installed in order to preclude the rotting in the first place?

In a perfect world, yes, you are dead-on correct. But that operation would hold true for every single hole cut into a boat during manufacturing where wood is present. From a manufacturing standpoint, this could add up to an immense amount of hours and would add substantially to the price of the boat (although, this is usually what I do to my own boats as I replace/repair/maintain/add things - but I work for free:smt001). Filling the area with thickened epoxy is the way to go. Using 5200 doesn't help as it's just another sealant. Well, I shouldn't say "doesn't" since it would still be a step in the right direction.

There may be some manufacturer's that do this, but you can be guaranteed that they are not even close to being in the same price range as Sea Ray. This was an oversight on SR's side so it's not like they KNEW this area was a concern or would cause a problem. I'm sure that ANY manufacturer would not intentionally use a product in a manner that was designed to fail.

Plus, things like deck hatches are not without maintenance. Anyone that expects ANY sealant to last forever is making a large, monetary mistake. They should be removed and resealed just like other areas of the boat after a given amount of time - regardless of the type of sealant used. Using traditional "caulk" does not eliminate the need to remove and reseal. So, on your boat, David, - it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to reseal your hatch - just in case. But don't worry - it's easy. To remove the hatch is barely a 30 minute job.

I have never used butyl tape, and am only aware of it from reading various books and online topics. But, I have to admit, I was under the impression that it was a superior product (and would last longer, as well). Although to do it correctly, it took extra time as there is a certain "tightening down" procedure - akin to a multiple-step torque spec. Maybe that's the step that was missed? I dunno - just a guess. Again, though, I've never personally used it - I'm only basing this on what I've read.

 

[fwebster]

Epoxy or resin filling a hole cut is a cored assembly is typically only done in areas below the waterline.

 

[Dani-Lu]

Timely thread. My port hatch ove the head is leaking a little. I am planning on removing and rebedding this spring. Fortunately this was the first hatch to leak, so no harm to any upholstery or ceiling vinyl. I will take this as a hint to also rebed the forward and starboard hatches at the same time. What is the best way to clean the underside of the hatch and fiberglass before rebedding? What silicone is recommended for this project? Thanks, Jeff

 

[Bt Doctur]

If you do use any type of silicone or RTV product is to place a bead of silicone and just set the piece in place, let silicone cure, and then final fasten .This way the sealant acts as a rubber gasket instead if just being squished out all over the place. Trim any excess with a razor blade

 

[Paul_P]

"Yes, the wet cores were traced to using butyl tape as a bedding medium."

Lets face it - the reason cores get wet and rot is not due to the type of sealant , but caused by exposed wood in the thru holes for hatches and screws on the deck - this goes back to the way the boats are built in the first place and the maintenance of the deck hardware being neglected. I keep hearing the magic number of "6 years" to re-bed the deck hardware- not sure where this number comes from.

When re-bedding anything, if there is a wooden core ,the core wood needs to be dried and or replaced and sealed with thickened epoxy. I can not imagine spending all the time and energy of re-bedding and not making sure the wood is sealed. If the sealant ever leaks in the future at least it won't penetrate the core.

Seal the holes/wood - make sure everything is clean - use the right amount of sealer and do not over tighten the screws at re-assembly.

 

[ttmott]

Butyl Rubber has it's place and that is to maintain the capability to easily remove what was bedded into it; consequently, it's adhesive qualities are not optimum for these applications anymore. The urethane bedding adhesives like 3M 5200 / 4400 and the Sikaflex urethane products are far superior for a leak proof installation; they will stick anything together. Should you want to remove the installation in the future the difficulty factor is up there using a urethane adhesive....

 

[fwebster]

"Yes, the wet cores were traced to using butyl tape as a bedding medium."

Lets face it - the reason cores get wet and rot is not due to the type of sealant , but caused by exposed wood in the thru holes for hatches and screws on the deck - this goes back to the way the boats are built in the first place and the maintenance of the deck hardware being neglected. I keep hearing the magic number of "6 years" to re-bed the deck hardware- not sure where this number comes from.

When re-bedding anything, if there is a wooden core ,the core wood needs to be dried and or replaced and sealed with thickened epoxy. I can not imagine spending all the time and energy of re-bedding and not making sure the wood is sealed. If the sealant ever leaks in the future at least it won't penetrate the core.

Seal the holes/wood - make sure everything is clean - use the right amount of sealer and do not over tighten the screws at re-assembly.

I agree that re-bedding hatches is a maintenance item. I re-bedded mine when my boat was 10 years old, had no leaks, but it is a cored deck and I wanted to be sure.

But, you apparently missed what I said. My answer to the OP's question described a problem with the tape you feel so strongly about. The example I cited had nothing to do with rebedding a leaking hatch but referenced why Sea Ray stopped using butyl rubber tape as a bedding medium. Sea Ray discovered this issue on boats about 1 year old and they changed their process to eliminate butyl rubber tape for bedding purposes. The butyl rubber fiasco was huge and affected a lot of owners. We had some members here who had to eat a 5 figure deck re-cores and many more who had boats they were trying to purchase fail the survey because of saturated decks around windlasses and hatches bedded with butyl rubber tape.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, so re-bed your hatches with tape and let us know how that works for you.

 

[Dani-Lu]

Frank- what silicone did you use to rebed your hatches? Also, wht do you recommend for how to install the hatch after applying the silicone? For example, apply silicone, screw down hatch but not tight, let cure, then tighten allowing the silicone to act as a gasket or tighten all screws when silicone is still wet and enough will be left between hatch and fiberglass to keep water out? Thanks.

 

[fwebster]

Jeff,

We used 3M Marine Silicone Sealant. We "buttered" the bottom edge of the hatch lip and the deck edge with silicone then set the hatch and tightened the screws. We were trying to install the hatch while squeezing out the excess silicone so we could see that we had 100% coverage 360˚ around the hatch lip.

 

[Paul_P]

123

 

[Lazy Daze]

Dani - I've done it both ways. Both the way you mentioned (like making a valve cover gasket) and the way that Frank mentioned. Most recently, I did it the way Frank said - including the butter part. I laid the hatch down dry, then outlined the deck with masking tape, then pulled the hatch back out and started sealing. I used BoatLife LifeSeal, but the 3M Silicone is good stuff, too.

The reason I didn't do the 'gasket' method here was I wanted the hatch to lay as flush to the deck as possible with no gap where leaves and other grit can collect. I felt there was sufficient area for sealant to be applied (and stay), even with the squeeze-out. Granted, I could come back and apply sealant into any "gaps", but for it's worth, that's why I chose that method.

 

[330DA]

I did this last year. I used BoatLife LifeCaulk. Clean the deck and dry. Put painter's tape around the hatch like above. Take the screws out. Use a putty knife to pry under one edge an pop the hatch frame up. My era boat had a dense foam with double sided tape on it to seal the hatch to the deck. I used the putty knife to get the foam off, but the tape was a PIA. A neighbor had an aerosol can of aircraft grade cleaner. That made it a lot easier. I would get something that takes glue off. Clean the deck surface where the hatch is going back. Fix/repair any of the gelcoat that cracked/peeled on the core material. Evaluate, if an expert needs to do any repair work to the core material. If no, I scuffed up the gelcoat on the core material and resealed with marine-tex. Apply the caulk to the deck where the hatch will sit. Seat the hatch in the hole and begin to start the screws back into the holes a few turns. Criss-cross tightening the screws like tire lugnuts, so you get even pressure. The caulk will ooze out onto the painter's tape. Use the putty knife to scoop up the excess caulk. Push the blade along the edge of the frame and take off the caulk. Peel the tape away and go below and install the trim piece in the ceiling.

I would look very closely between the vinyl/foam ceiling material and the underside of the deck for any wetness and dry it before you put the trim ring back.