Domestic water leak

[wineknot]

One of my best purchases a couple of years ago was a wifi endoscope that connects to my iphone. It's less than $40. I've used this thing to look inside walls and through bulkheads to see what's in there. It has a light and it's really small. There's a lot of brands available. I bought this one 3 years ago on Amazon and still like it:
DEPSTECH Wireless Endoscope, IP67 Waterproof WiFi
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MYTHWK4

 

[Rob Howard]

Thanks Bob! Checking…

 

[Rob Howard]

First - does the water pump cycle on and off even when water isn't being intentionally used?
If not then the pressure side of the water system is probably good and not leaking.
If it is cycling then turn the power off to the pump and monitor to see if water is still accumulating. If water is still accumulating then there is another leak and the pump/pressure piping have issues also.
If the pump isn't cycling or water is still accumulating when power to the pump is off then either an extremal leak or the freshwater tank is cracked or there is a leak in the tank fill line/other lines connected to the tank.

It isn't all that unusual for a crack in the water tank to develop due to overfilling. Very prominent in the 400DA's because of the "L" shaped tank. Overfilling the water tank will cause the top to bulge outward and stress the corners causing a crack in the corner.

So, you can put some food coloring in the water tank and fill it then see if the bilge water turns that color.
Drain the tank to see if the issue goes away.

Lastly, do you use dock water connected to the boat's water system? A host of issues can arise when using dock water pressure as the pressure regulators have a history of issues.

Edit - get the Parts Manual for the boat; the water line routing is illustrated with the parts there.

Yes the pump cycles on and off when no demand… no taps on… water tank is a rectangle and no evidence of water in that area… when pump isn’t running there is no water accumulating in the wet area (the lid of the the cubbyhole / storage cupboard) … I’m not connected to shore water, heard too many disaster stories. … the water system diagrammatic in the parts manual does show the water running from the pump to the starboard side around the bilge to the swim grid wash down then to the hot water heater.
I’ve got a few hours blocked out this afternoon to try again to track things down.
Another weird thing is in this area, above the lid of the cubbyhole, there is a +/- 1” heavy rubber hose that terminates… ie just ends… no clamp, no plug… just a real clean end??? It can just be seen in that photo attached… I‘m reluctant to pull on it as it’s intertwined with a bunch of electrical cables.

 

[Rob Howard]

Picture attached

 

[bobeast]

If you look to the right of your helm seat, there is a cup-holder / storage bin. If you remove that, you may be able to see where the leak is occurring by shining a flashlight around. In any case, I can see no reason why there should be any plumbing going in that direction. You are probably dealing with a modification by a well-meaning idiot from the boat's past.

 

[Rob Howard]

If you look to the right of your helm seat, there is a cup-holder / storage bin. If you remove that, you may be able to see where the leak is occurring by shining a flashlight around. In any case, I can see no reason why there should be any plumbing going in that direction. You are probably dealing with a modification by a well-meaning idiot from the boat's past.

Thanks Bob… boy I’m going to owe you a case of beer, or more … I’ve tracked down the blue line and it runs the way the diagrammatic in the parts manual shows… so it starts off running up from the pump and weaves back to run along the starboard side back to the swim grid wash down… the only plausible explanation seems to be a leak in the tubing where it bends to start it’s starboard run… and that leak under the pressure of the pump squirts water onto the lid of the cubbyhole… I’ll try the cup holder view… that should be about where the blue tubing makes it’s turn… many thanks from the West Coast of B.C.

 

[bobeast]

You'll probably find a right-angle connector, rather than a bend, and that will likely be where it is leaking.

 

[Lazy Daze]

Thanks Bob… boy I’m going to owe you a case of beer, or more … I’ve tracked down the blue line and it runs the way the diagrammatic in the parts manual shows… so it starts off running up from the pump and weaves back to run along the starboard side back to the swim grid wash down… the only plausible explanation seems to be a leak in the tubing where it bends to start it’s starboard run… and that leak under the pressure of the pump squirts water onto the lid of the cubbyhole… I’ll try the cup holder view… that should be about where the blue tubing makes it’s turn… many thanks from the West Coast of B.C.

OK, so the water line DOES run around the way I was imagining it should? That's good - at least there's no more mystery.

I would think there would be a 90* adapter, as well - where the line from the pump joins into the line that is running horizontally around the bilge with other stuff. Once you inspect closer you'll figure it out. This is an easy leak to figure out since you can easily replicate it. It's the occasional or very slow leaks that are a pain.

 

[Rob Howard]

OK, so the water line DOES run around the way I was imagining it should? That's good - at least there's no more mystery.

I would think there would be a 90* adapter, as well - where the line from the pump joins into the line that is running horizontally around the bilge with other stuff. Once you inspect closer you'll figure it out. This is an easy leak to figure out since you can easily replicate it. It's the occasional or very slow leaks that are a pain.

The last two days of searching have been a mind bender… I bought an endoscopy camera as recommended above… there appears a good chance the leak in the cabin is not related to the domestic water, although the system looses pressure and the pump cycles every 10 or 15 seconds without any demand for water…
When I pulled the fibreglass panel off (located on the starboard side by the helm seat as you suggested) it gave me a great view into the area I could only see from below previously… and I found the aftermarket installed Heater Craft unit, which is plumbed, and spent the better part of the day thinking that must be the source as it is located exactly where the water was accumulating… although it all appeared dry …. but now for the first time there is ‘new’ water accumulating and I haven’t run the domestic water system or the Heater Craft… as I’m searching around with the camera I find one 1/4” black wire that is wet on the underside and dripping at a low point right where water accumulates… the wire comes from the radar arch… so I’m thinking the seal between the radar arch and the deck needs to be repaired replaced…

Still have to solve the domestic water problem… but if it is leaking I no longer think it’s making its way into the cabin… it’s difficult as that blue tubing is very well hidden… even with all of the above investigation the exact routing of the tubing is still not clear… I’ll try following it from the other side over the weekend.

Can’t thank you enough for all your tips and advice… the search continues

Also, I used the camera to get a picture of the Port side shaft seal which also has a slow leak and causes the bilge pump to run for 1-2 seconds every 45 minutes.

 

[Rob Howard]

One of my best purchases a couple of years ago was a wifi endoscope that connects to my iphone. It's less than $40. I've used this thing to look inside walls and through bulkheads to see what's in there. It has a light and it's really small. There's a lot of brands available. I bought this one 3 years ago on Amazon and still like it:
DEPSTECH Wireless Endoscope, IP67 Waterproof WiFi
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MYTHWK4

Great recommendation… bought one and used it yesterday… see below… this camera paid for itself 10x in just one day… thank you.

 

[bobeast]

The last two days of searching have been a mind bender… I bought an endoscopy camera as recommended above… there appears a good chance the leak in the cabin is not related to the domestic water, although the system looses pressure and the pump cycles every 10 or 15 seconds without any demand for water…
When I pulled the fibreglass panel off (located on the starboard side by the helm seat as you suggested) it gave me a great view into the area I could only see from below previously… and I found the aftermarket installed Heater Craft unit, which is plumbed, and spent the better part of the day thinking that must be the source as it is located exactly where the water was accumulating… although it all appeared dry …. but now for the first time there is ‘new’ water accumulating and I haven’t run the domestic water system or the Heater Craft… as I’m searching around with the camera I find one 1/4” black wire that is wet on the underside and dripping at a low point right where water accumulates… the wire comes from the radar arch… so I’m thinking the seal between the radar arch and the deck needs to be repaired replaced…

Still have to solve the domestic water problem… but if it is leaking I no longer think it’s making its way into the cabin… it’s difficult as that blue tubing is very well hidden… even with all of the above investigation the exact routing of the tubing is still not clear… I’ll try following it from the other side over the weekend.

Can’t thank you enough for all your tips and advice… the search continues

Also, I used the camera to get a picture of the Port side shaft seal which also has a slow leak and causes the bilge pump to run for 1-2 seconds every 45 minutes.

If the pump is running without demand, you DO have a domestic water leak. Whether that leak is associated with the aft starboard storage bin remains to be seen I suppose. If it were me I'd be yanking that Heater Craft unit out, and bypassing it. It might be leaking from the core, rather than via the water connections. Water leaks are sneaky bastards which can flow down a wire or wall in the exact place where you can't get your eyes or hands.

 

[Lazy Daze]

If the pump is running that often there is definitely a leak. What side is your water heater on? Look over the side of the boat at where the expansion valve thru-hull is - is water coming out there? If you need more clarification... find the valve on your water heater - it's got a small, silver handle and there will be a black, rubber hose attached to the valve. Follow the rubber hose to the side of the boat.

For good measure, wrap some paper towels around the Heater Craft heater - see if they get wet.

For the arch... an easy temporary thing to do for "detective work" is to get some shrink wrap tape and tape all of the sealant areas on the arch. Shrink tape removes nicely without any residue left behind. Or spray the arch area with a hose... see if the drip gets worse.

 

[bobeast]

Another thought on that Heater Craft unit. If it is truly plumbed directly to the pump outlet, it is installed incorrectly. A marine heater needs to be plumbed into the hot water supply (red), AFTER the water heater.

For a correct installation, there should be two hoses routed all the way from the hot water system, all of which is on the port side. If you can find where it branches off, you should be able to bypass it there in order to eliminate the Heater Craft and the two long hose runs.

see this manual

 

[Lazy Daze]

Another thought on that Heater Craft unit. If it is truly plumbed directly to the pump outlet, it is installed incorrectly. A marine heater needs to be plumbed into the hot water supply (red), AFTER the water heater.

Ha! That basic premise (needs HOT water to work) didn't even register with me!

 

[techmitch]

Another thought on that Heater Craft unit. If it is truly plumbed directly to the pump outlet, it is installed incorrectly. A marine heater needs to be plumbed into the hot water supply (red), AFTER the water heater.

For a correct installation, there should be two hoses routed all the way from the hot water system, all of which is on the port side. If you can find where it branches off, you should be able to bypass it there in order to eliminate the Heater Craft and the two long hose runs.

see this manual

Ha! That basic premise (needs HOT water to work) didn't even register with me!

I thought those heaters used hot water from the engines cooling system. No?

 

[bobeast]

I thought those heaters used hot water from the engines cooling system. No?

either/and. My water heater contains an engine heat exchanger in addition to its electrical element, so a radiator style heater can be plumbed anywhere after the water heater. If you have an older water heater that doesn't have its own heat exchanger then yes an auxiliary heater would plumb directly to one of the engines.

In the case of my boat the water heater gets heat from the port engine, so if I were installing an aux heater I might just run it off the starboard engine for ease of routing. That would preclude its use on shore-power without the engine running however.

@Rob Howard - This brings up a good point. If your Heater Craft is plumbed directly to an engine, then it is NOT the source of your domestic water leak. If it is however plumbed into the hot water system after the water heater, it very well could be the culprit. (That's where my money is)

 

[wayne0]

Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a "Heater Craft" and how does is it work in conjunction with the on board water heater?

 

[Rob Howard]

I’m new to this boat but it has an aftermarket Heater providing warm air to the cabin and bridge… it pulls heat… I think… from the warm engine or hot water heater… the exact source I’m not yet sure of… when I figure that out I’ll let you know…

 

[bobeast]

I’m new to this boat but it has an aftermarket Heater providing warm air to the cabin and bridge… it pulls heat… I think… from the warm engine or hot water heater… the exact source I’m not yet sure of… when I figure that out I’ll let you know…

On reflection, I'm wondering if can even work without being plumbed to an engine. There would be no water flow through it if plumbed after the water heater so maybe it is engine only? I just don't know.

 

[Rob Howard]

Well… here I go again… after 3 days or more of trying to track this down… I’ve gone full circle. I’ve been tracing the blue tubing that carries the domestic water… armed with a endoscopy camera I turned on the domestic water pump to track the leak and could immediately hear dripping in the cubby hole area… no need for the endoscopy camera to see the leak… see picture… the culprit is what I thought must be abandoned Heater Craft Plumbing … but it’s live or at least carry’s water pressurized by the domestic water pump… now I’m completely stumped … what in the heck could have happened here… two open ends of the same type of hose both coming from the same direction??? … I realize this is all aftermarket stuff… but any ideas how I fix this?