custom dash panels and LED backlighting

[wolverineDreaM]

Dash Panel Replacements with LED upgrades (project 7 update)

I have virtually all of the panels replaced on the 380 at this point. The switch panel, instrument panel, E80 chartplotter panel, even a back up camera panel to overlay a hole made from a previous install in the stern (remote radio control), added bilge switches to the pump panel etc. I had the name of the boat added and replaced the stupid black swoop with the gold sea ray with a wood grain sea ray. The Sea Ray name I back lit with a yellow LED and the Wolverine DreaM III was backlit blue. The LED’s were about $3.50 each and purchased from
http://ledaccentlights.net/store/
The dash panels made a huge difference in the look of the boat. The old ones were faded, chipped and in overall poor shape. I worked with Scott Cambra at Vector Imaging. Scott bent over backwards to deliver a great product at a really good price on time. I don’t know how the guy does it, but he was able to do everything I asked and then some. One thing that I learned working with Scott is that whenever possible send him the old panels and exact dimensions of things you need cut. Unfortunately, Raymarine and others don’t always supply the correct dimensions on their website and nothing is worse for Scott (and ultimately you) to cut a panel that is even a little off. As an example, my E80 when cut to the exact template that Scott had didn’t quite fit my panel and Raymarine had the wrong template listed for my 6002. One other thing, Scott can backlight your switches which I highly recommend but when he says the thin wire can be broken if mishandled he means it. After replacing about 20 switches and three electronic devices, I found that I had accidentally broken 4 of the switch wires. I will solder the wires and they will work fine but one more thing to do that wouldn’t be required if I had been a bit more careful. Scott said he gets about 60 emails a day so be patient. I think you’ll find it worth your while. My pics and the LED backlighting I added is below. If you want replacement panels, Scott can be reached at www.vectorled.com or scottcambra@verizon.net
The first 5 pics or so are the old panels and the new ones of the dash and back up camera follow
http://picasaweb.google.com/116887177506323657191/DashPanels?feat=directlink

 

[At Ease]

Wow! Very nice work...

 

[fc3]

Two things, never solder wires for any marine system. Never.

LEDs should not be dimmed with a variable voltage source. It's better to use a constant current PWM style dimmer.

 

[Pietro]

Nice work, really. I can see me sending my dash to Scott this winter!

 

[wolverineDreaM]

first of all, it isn't on a dimmer. It's steady state. Second, I am on fresh not salt so technically not a "marine" environment and soldering a connection with the appropriate sealant after the fact should be fine. Of course you can feel free to do what you want when you do yours

 

[fc3]

We have a new wingliss!

 

[TheLucille]

We have a new wingliss!

I fail to see the comparison. First off, soldering is bad for "heavy" connections which can flex easily. You should typically not use it for battery connections, general purpose wiring, etc.

However, "never solder wires for any marine system" is way overgeneralized and wrong. First off, EVERY marine system has solder. Every circuit board, many senders and some wiring connections are soldered. No feasible way around it.

Light-gauge data/power wires/etc. can be soldered without worry. For construction of a backlit cluster, I can't see anything wrong with solder. Should you splice two battery cables together with it? Of course not. On a trailer, I'd solder + adhesive head shrink way before I would crimp, and I have a proper ratcheting crimp tool from Amp which was way too much money for what it does

You're technically correct about the LEDs. For power consumption/efficiency and the longevity of the LEDs, it'd be better to use a proper LED controller/PWM dimmer. In reality, the LEDs have a far longer lifespan either way than the lifespan of his boat/gauge cluster, and the power consumption is minimal and is almost always only on when the boat is running, so what's the big deal? Is there a current-limiting resistor in place before the pot?

 

[TheLucille]

Dash Panel Replacements with LED upgrades (project 7 update)

I have virtually all of the panels replaced on the 380 at this point. The switch panel, instrument panel, E80 chartplotter panel, even a back up camera panel to overlay a hole made from a previous install in the stern (remote radio control), added bilge switches to the pump panel etc. I had the name of the boat added and replaced the stupid black swoop with the gold sea ray with a wood grain sea ray. The Sea Ray name I back lit with a yellow LED and the Wolverine DreaM III was backlit blue. The LED’s were about $3.50 each and purchased from
http://ledaccentlights.net/store/
The dash panels made a huge difference in the look of the boat. The old ones were faded, chipped and in overall poor shape. I worked with Scott Cambra at Vector Imaging. Scott bent over backwards to deliver a great product at a really good price on time. I don’t know how the guy does it, but he was able to do everything I asked and then some. One thing that I learned working with Scott is that whenever possible send him the old panels and exact dimensions of things you need cut. Unfortunately, Raymarine and others don’t always supply the correct dimensions on their website and nothing is worse for Scott (and ultimately you) to cut a panel that is even a little off. As an example, my E80 when cut to the exact template that Scott had didn’t quite fit my panel and Raymarine had the wrong template listed for my 6002. One other thing, Scott can backlight your switches which I highly recommend but when he says the thin wire can be broken if mishandled he means it. After replacing about 20 switches and three electronic devices, I found that I had accidentally broken 4 of the switch wires. I will solder the wires and they will work fine but one more thing to do that wouldn’t be required if I had been a bit more careful. Scott said he gets about 60 emails a day so be patient. I think you’ll find it worth your while. My pics and the LED backlighting I added is below. If you want replacement panels, Scott can be reached at www.vectorled.com or scottcambra@verizon.net
The first 5 pics or so are the old panels and the new ones of the dash and back up camera follow
http://picasaweb.google.com/116887177506323657191/DashPanels?feat=directlink

Panels look great, BTW, thanks for sharing with us

 

[BDO86]

Hi there. I cannot seem to get the link you provided to work.
Can you please e-mail me the pics as I would like to do the same as well. My e-mail address is bdo86@aol.com.

Thank you,

Bryan

 

[Four Suns]

Light-gauge data/power wires/etc. can be soldered without worry. For construction of a backlit cluster, I can't see anything wrong with solder.

I can't comment on the LED switch... as I was never good with my EE classes... but I will comment on the whole solder thing. The OP stated he was going to solder the wires to the switches at his helm. That is a big no-no per the ABYC which states something to the effect that solder should not be the sole connection for wiring. I see people post crappy electrical work online with solder, black electrical tape and even wire nuts and don't see anything wrong with it... It is wrong.

The wiring for these switches (Carling-type) have spade connectors and the crimps, and when done right, are not going to come out if you bump them. The problem is that I think Sea Ray has some cheap unskilled labor doing these crimps and they don't hold up sometimes.... and so people then think "crimp connections are bad."

I believe the problem with solder is the vibration aspect of it. Solder is not flexible and will crack and disentigrate making the connection fall apart. This also one reason you can't use solid wire on a boat but must used stranded wire. Boats are not like cars as the engine mounts are not as "cushy" and there is a high-frequency vibration that hits everything on the boat. This is in addition to any low frequency vibration and impact movement from waves/seas. Just yesterday, I pulled off a Beam central vacuum inlet on the boat and the two stranded wires on the inlet were connected with screw terminals and the wires had degraded to the point there was probably two wire strands left on each connection... the wires were floating behind the vacuum inlet and I assume they had been vibrating and flopping around the last 7 years and fatigued the wire... solder would have given up 6 years ago. I've seen this problem surface on a bilge GFCI plug and several other wires on the boat.

Wiring terminated with a crimp connector and the insulated jacket or shrink wrap on the terminal gong back on the wire and inch or two relieves the strain and prevents vibration from fatiguing the wires... that's one reason ABYC wants crimp connectors on terminals... Airplanes require crimp connectors as well.

There are some things that have solder. However, I'm pretty sure the electronic module bolted on my engine with a circuit board and solder for the components is encased in epoxy... and the connecting wires are crimped... For the operational infrastructure wiring on the boat, I don't know of anything that is soldered as the primary connection mechanism.... and I've dug pretty deep into the stuff. And the OP is discussing wire termination on some switches at the helm and not circuit boards. I don't believe the OP nor the ABYC discusses how solder and circuit boards should be used....

Of course, some systems on a boat have solder... Look at any of the home electronics type of stuff like speakers, coffee makers, TV's, etc and there are soldered connections.... but they are not "mission critical". I had to use some solder on my AV gear but it's in heat shrink adhesive tubing and tied down to a board so it won't budge... and I tried to minimize it.

I don't have the statistics in front of me but if I remember right, fires on boats caused by improper 12v wiring was the highest single cause.... So the "no solder rule" really needs to be adhered to...

I am on fresh not salt so technically not a "marine" environment and soldering a connection with the appropriate sealant after the fact should be fine.

OK... that's just horse poop. A "marine" environment is not dictated by the type of water you boat in... I grew up on Lake Huron and that "fresh water" could tear up any boat... or ship... We've also seen this kind of thinking when people put underwater lights on their boat and think drilling a hole in the hull and slopping some sealant goop from a tube is "good enough" to protect the hull from damage...

I do agree that Scott at Vector Imaging does nice work... Makes any job look professional.

 

[TheLucille]

I can't comment on the LED switch... as I was never good with my EE classes... but I will comment on the whole solder thing. The OP stated he was going to solder the wires to the switches at his helm. That is a big no-no per the ABYC which states something to the effect that solder should not be the sole connection for wiring. I see people post crappy electrical work online with solder, black electrical tape and even wire nuts and don't see anything wrong with it... It is wrong.

The wiring for these switches (Carling-type) have spade connectors and the crimps, and when done right, are not going to come out if you bump them. The problem is that I think Sea Ray has some cheap unskilled labor doing these crimps and they don't hold up sometimes.... and so people then think "crimp connections are bad."

I believe the problem with solder is the vibration aspect of it. Solder is not flexible and will crack and disentigrate making the connection fall apart. This also one reason you can't use solid wire on a boat but must used stranded wire. Boats are not like cars as the engine mounts are not as "cushy" and there is a high-frequency vibration that hits everything on the boat. This is in addition to any low frequency vibration and impact movement from waves/seas. Just yesterday, I pulled off a Beam central vacuum inlet on the boat and the two stranded wires on the inlet were connected with screw terminals and the wires had degraded to the point there was probably two wire strands left on each connection... the wires were floating behind the vacuum inlet and I assume they had been vibrating and flopping around the last 7 years and fatigued the wire... solder would have given up 6 years ago. I've seen this problem surface on a bilge GFCI plug and several other wires on the boat.

Wiring terminated with a crimp connector and the insulated jacket or shrink wrap on the terminal gong back on the wire and inch or two relieves the strain and prevents vibration from fatiguing the wires... that's one reason ABYC wants crimp connectors on terminals... Airplanes require crimp connectors as well.

There are some things that have solder. However, I'm pretty sure the electronic module bolted on my engine with a circuit board and solder for the components is encased in epoxy... and the connecting wires are crimped... For the operational infrastructure wiring on the boat, I don't know of anything that is soldered as the primary connection mechanism.... and I've dug pretty deep into the stuff. And the OP is discussing wire termination on some switches at the helm and not circuit boards. I don't believe the OP nor the ABYC discusses how solder and circuit boards should be used....

Of course, some systems on a boat have solder... Look at any of the home electronics type of stuff like speakers, coffee makers, TV's, etc and there are soldered connections.... but they are not "mission critical". I had to use some solder on my AV gear but it's in heat shrink adhesive tubing and tied down to a board so it won't budge... and I tried to minimize it.

I don't have the statistics in front of me but if I remember right, fires on boats caused by improper 12v wiring was the highest single cause.... So the "no solder rule" really needs to be adhered to...



OK... that's just horse poop. A "marine" environment is not dictated by the type of water you boat in... I grew up on Lake Huron and that "fresh water" could tear up any boat... or ship... We've also seen this kind of thinking when people put underwater lights on their boat and think drilling a hole in the hull and slopping some sealant goop from a tube is "good enough" to protect the hull from damage...

I do agree that Scott at Vector Imaging does nice work... Makes any job look professional.

You have valid points, but when he said the "thin" wires I was assuming these are very thin-gauge wires that power the backlight LEDs on the panel, not the actual switch connections themselves. Only he can verify

I think his "marine environment" comment was that he thought the reason to not use solder was due to corrosion, which of course it isn't.

Of course, some systems on a boat have solder... Look at any of the home electronics type of stuff like speakers, coffee makers, TV's, etc and there are soldered connections.... but they are not "mission critical"

Just about every electronic device has solder. Battery chargers, inverters, chartplotters, many bilge pumps, fuel tank sending units, fuel-injected engines, blowers... It's bad for wiring connections directly related to wire gauge as the weight of the wire "bounces", and if it's soldered at a fixed connection point or the two are moving differently, it will stress the solder which cracks relatively easily.

 

[wolverineDreaM]

The Lucille - You are correct in stating that the LED's use very thin angel wire typically although Scott's panels have a solid thin pair of wires.
On the installs I added there are a variety of connections. Some connections such as the uw lights are heavier gauge and crimped onto electrical connectors. Where wire meets wire they are crimped and shrink wraped. The custom switch panel has two solid, yet thin wires that are "tacked" off at each switch light. These wire are not attached to any switch but to LED's except for being enabled by the running light switch which still has an intact connection. Unfortunately, when the wires broke there appears to be no simple way to re establish the connection. Jumpers would be a mess and taking every switch off of the panel and sending it back for two new "master" wires would be a pain I am not willing to incur with about 6 projects of the 20 some left to go still this summer. I can't see any fix that makes sense nor do I see any "fire risk" especially with something that is pulling about one amp total on a 12v system. By the way, I put the pics up to show what a great job he did on the dash panels. Certainly suprising to see the plethora of knowledge one can glean here (like not burning up my boat BTW, DC shorts/wiring account for 30% of all fires.

thanks

 

[wolverineDreaM]

sure BD try this link if not I will email them to you. Try to cut and paste them.

http://picasaweb.google.com/116887177506323657191/DashPanels

the other projects I put up are
flooring
http://picasaweb.google.com/116887177506323657191/FlooringNuteak

TV's cockpit and cabin
http://picasaweb.google.com/116887177506323657191/FlatScreenTv

Underwater, swim platform, spoiler lights
http://picasaweb.google.com/116887177506323657191/UnderwaterSpoilerAndPlatformLights

 

[Four Suns]

After replacing about 20 switches and three electronic devices, I found that I had accidentally broken 4 of the switch wires. I will solder the wires and they will work fine but one more thing to do that wouldn’t be required if I had been a bit more careful.

Based on your wording here, I assumed "switch wires" meant wires that were attached to the switches and powering the 12v things. My comments were based on that interpretation of what you wrote above. Isn't it interesting though how the "solid wire" on the panel is breaking even though it is just powering the LEDs?...

Don't get all testy with people here... no one here wrote the ABYC guidelines... Maybe they are just full of poop.

 

[wolverineDreaM]

Testy? Hardly. Real life unfortunately intrudes too much on project and response time which intrudes on fun time which there is all too little of when it comes to summer in Minnesota. Actually responding to this at my desk in Nova Scotia (corporate is here). The reason the wires broke isn't interesting at all, pretty mundane actually. I had to pull about 40 wired connectors off of about 20, ten year old switches while putting them back into the new panels and reconnecting them with very little room to work and in doing so broke a few of the wires. If I was really organized, I would have marked each of the wires and drawn up their corresponding placement on the switches. I would then have taken all of the switches and connectors off first before putting them back onto the new panel which would have had a nice soft mat placed under it to protect the exposed wires. So pretty boring but that's why I run sales and marketing. Maybe those of us with rampant ADD should have more bucks to hire those better equipped to do work like this but I certainly learned quite a bit in the process. Now if I can just figure out what the accessory switch is wired to (which I can't) life would be good. So please don't take my comments as testy. I really don't dive that shallow. But I do love good sarcasm at times. First beer is on me.

Jon:thumbsup:

 

[TheLucille]

Based on your wording here, I assumed "switch wires" meant wires that were attached to the switches and powering the 12v things. My comments were based on that interpretation of what you wrote above. Isn't it interesting though how the "solid wire" on the panel is breaking even though it is just powering the LEDs?...

Don't get all testy with people here... no one here wrote the ABYC guidelines... Maybe they are just full of poop.

Bad connections or wrong wire gauge, or he pulled them off from a cold solder joint. Nobody is disagreeing with the ABYC guidelines. Having a chartplotter, bilge pump, navigation light, gauge cluster, etc with solder in it does not mean you're not meeting ABYC regs, or no boat would satisfy them

When attaching a LED, which has a fine-gauge solid wire, soldering is going to produce a much more reliable connection than a crimped butt splice.

Pick your battles; save the anti-solder crusade for someone who's soldering wires in the engine compartment, ones which carry actual amperage, AC wires, etc.

 

[Turtlesboat]

It would be a shame to have someone think it's ok to solder stuff because it's not in the ER, or it's just 12v DC, and have their boat burn to the water line because a solder joint broke.

 

[TheLucille]

It would be a shame to have someone think it's ok to solder stuff because it's not in the ER, or it's just 12v DC, and have their boat burn to the water line because a solder joint broke.

Give me a call when you have all the solder joints removed from your boat so I can see whats left

 

[Turtlesboat]

The only solder joints that I've seen on my boat are on rigid PC boards. Everything else is crimped.

 

[Turtlesboat]

Actually that's not true. My audio cables connecting all of my AV stuff is soldered, I'm replacing all of them because about half are intermittent or failed.