Cummins 6CTA Question

[Russ Calasant]

I just had a pre purchase survey by a Cummins mechanic. The 6CTA's have 750 hours and upon inspection and fluid analysis everything looked great. The only issue found was the drain fittings on the bottom of the turbos need to be replaced, they are corroded. The previous owner had limited maintenance records but states he has performed all regular maintenance. The Cummins survey recommended that I perform the 600 hour service to the tune of almost $7000 due to the lack of maintenance proof. This included valve adjustment and hot dipping oil coolers and heat exchanger along with 2 or 3 days of work. Here is my question, I plan to run this boat 150 miles to home. I plan to change fluids, filters and the turbo drain fittings. Should I also have the full service done prior to the trip or can I comfortably do the major service at home port? Ideally it would be easier and give me a few more weeks to swallow that bill. I'm a true believer in better safe than sorry but I must wonder if it's not overkill. I have friends with these motors with thousands of hours that have never done a thing but change fluids- not that I'm even suggesting. What do you guys think? (Alex I know what you think!)

 

[390x]

Run it home. It doesn't sound like there's evidence that this needs to be done other than the lack of evidence that it has been!

 

[SeaNile]

I put diesels in my previous boat and although they do require a bit of upkeep, you have to realize how we use these engines is nothing compared to the real farm and heavy equipment field. My point is the 150 mile trip is nothing to these engines. Can't predict the future but if all the fluids are good, they aren't spewing blue, white, gray or black smoke and they turn up the recommended WOT they are in decent shape to begin with. Make sure your impellers are good, you've got clean fuel filters and a spare set and you'll be fine.

I don't know what boat you are getting but very few people regret going from gas to diesel!

John

 

[Morgan Jane]

Russ, I think your real goal is to get your boat back home. Statistically speaking, you are more likely to mess something up that will cause it to break down on the way back if you service it, than you are to have an issue if you do nothing in my opinion. Remember, if it ain't broke, don't fix it is the saying. I wouldn't do anything but check for any major issues which have already been done by your surveyor. and then just peek down there every once and a while on the way back. Look for leaking fluid, low coolant and such. Good luck.

Bill

 

[floriduramax1]

I agree with everyone else. Take her home. Then if something comes up while running the overheads, it will be easier to do and swallow at home!

 

[Alex F]

Russ, I think your real goal is to get your boat back home. Statistically speaking, you are more likely to mess something up that will cause it to break down on the way back if you service it, than you are to have an issue if you do nothing in my opinion. Remember, if it ain't broke, don't fix it is the saying. I wouldn't do anything but check for any major issues which have already been done by your surveyor. and then just peek down there every once and a while on the way back. Look for leaking fluid, low coolant and such. Good luck.

Bill

Bill, I was going to stay quite, but man what a post :smt101.

...Statistically speaking, you are more likely to mess something up that will cause it to break down on the way back if you service it, than you are to have an issue if you do nothing in my opinion...

I wonder where you get such statistic? Perhaps Russ should have clarified that the service he is looking to do would be performed by Certified Cummins shop, regardless in NJ or at homeport.

....Remember, if it ain't broke, don't fix it is the saying....

Unfortunately, this statement is conflicting with what we all know as preventive maintenance, which minimizes the risk of anything (or at least major components) breaking. We don't wait for engine/genny overheat alarm to go off before changing impellers, right?

....I wouldn't do anything but check for any major issues which have already been done by your surveyor. and then just peek down there every once and a while on the way back. Look for leaking fluid, low coolant and such....

If I recall (Russ, correct me if I'm wrong), the 600hrs service was recommended by the surveyor. So, the question is not whether it should be done or not. The question is WHERE to do it, in NJ or take her home and do it in CT?

 

[Alex F]

I agree with everyone else. Take her home. Then if something comes up while running the overheads, it will be easier to do and swallow at home!

Max, do you know what it cost to have Cummins engine repaired if it swallows a valve? ..............it'll make $300 valve adjustment job look like $0.0000000002c.

So if you had a boat to take home with 750hrs and NO history of valve adjustments you would still take the chance?..........just saying.

 

[osd9]

No one can predict exactly when a failure will occur.....regardless of the state of the boat's maintanence.

There is a lot of credit in what the tech 'suggested'. However, I wouldn't think that this boat couldn't make a 150 mile run. Afterall, a Cummins tech just inspected the motors and from what I read in Russ' other's posts, he didn't say to not run them. BTW....Russ....did you ask the Cummins tech for his opinion?

150 miles is approximately 8 hrs run time at a reasonably moderate pace. If these motors can't run for 8 hrs then I personally would not have bought the boat.

If Russ makes the decision to run the boat home, then do the basics as suggested above....fluids, impellers, filters, etc. Carry spare fuel filters and do NOT treat the fuel with any anti biocides. Check the belts and maybe even carry a set of spares.

Now, if Russ makes the decision to have all the work done before the run home, then, IMHO it would be best to start a relationship with a Cummins tech who is local to where the boat will live. If the estimate of work is $7000, and considering that it's the middle of the winter and not yet the busy season, then I would contact a Cummins tech local to where the boat will live and negotiate a reasonable travel fee. Maybe offer to split the travel with them. Even if they don't want to negotiate, 6 hrs of travel at $150 is less than a boat dollar...and in the grand scheme of things, is worth the extra piece of mind knowing that when the boat does get home, if something needs to be tweaked, the tech is local. Trying to have a Cummins tech who is 6 hrs travel time away come to check on something that was just done will be more aggravating and probably cost more in the long run.


Oh...and make sure the HWH is properly winterized.

 

[SeaNile]

Now, if Russ makes the decision to have all the work done before the run home, then, IMHO it would be best to start a relationship with a Cummins tech who is local to where the boat will live. If the estimate of work is $7000, and considering that it's the middle of the winter and not yet the busy season, then I would contact a Cummins tech local to where the boat will live and negotiate a reasonable travel fee. Maybe offer to split the travel with them. Even if they don't want to negotiate, 6 hrs of travel at $150 is less than a boat dollar...and in the grand scheme of things, is worth the extra piece of mind knowing that when the boat does get home, if something needs to be tweaked, the tech is local. Trying to have a Cummins tech who is 6 hrs travel time away come to check on something that was just done will be more aggravating and probably cost more in the long run.


Oh...and make sure the HWH is properly winterized.

That is the most important thing to consider. You want a good relationship with the tech/company who is local to you and who will be servicing the boat in the future. Allowing them to determine a baseline for your engines and systems is important.

Again, the ride home is nothing for these engines. You will be fine.

 

[SR400DB]

So I am curious, what are they doing for 7K? The valve adjustment is right around one boat dollar, flushing the coolant is about one half a boat dollar. What else are they planning to do at 750 hours? I would be curious what else they say is due at 600 hours.

 

[Alex F]

I totally agree with Dom's point regarding building good relationship with local (to you) certified Cummins shop. We all know how great, powerful and bulletproof diesels are and I agree that theoretically 150miles run is a drop in the sea for them. But, reading reports like this makes me think twice about some critical maintenance items (read post #6):

http://clubsearay.com/showthread.php/38770-Cummins-diesel-engines-480C-2004

We can't predict what will happen, so we can only try to make the best decision based on info we have at hand.

 

[Russ Calasant]

All good insight and considerations, thank you. Maybe the answer is to fluid/filter change, bring spares and have valve adjustment done there and then bring her home.
Dom, I did not ask the tech, thinking that he would most likely be biased. He did say they were the best running pair he has seen with hours on them, speccing out as like new. He only mentioned 600 hour service after I asked. I got the impression that this recommended service is relatively new. I have friends with older C series that are diligent and said no such service was ever recommended to them. I'm all about preventative maintenance, I want to do the right thing but I don't want to throw money away on overkill.
The next issue is coordinating that service. The one Cummins service is very expensive but he comes to the boat, he is dispatched from LI. You pay travel no matter what they do. The dealer is more reasonable but I think I have to get the boat to him. So come March I will have to come down, move the boat for service then come down again to pick up and make the trip home. I would like to avoid that first trip. I will have to call the dealer.

 

[Russ Calasant]

So I am curious, what are they doing for 7K? The valve adjustment is right around one boat dollar, flushing the coolant is about one half a boat dollar. What else are they planning to do at 750 hours? I would be curious what else they say is due at 600 hours.

There is a very long list I can email you if you send me your email address. How many hours do you have? What service have you done? Thanks

 

[Alex F]

...I have friends with older C series that are diligent and said no such service was ever recommended to them. .....

This is why we hear reports like this: http://clubsearay.com/showthread.php/43470-2005-420DA-6CTA-s-lost-4-cylinder-150-hrs!!!!

 

[Russ Calasant]

This is why we hear reports like this: http://clubsearay.com/showthread.php/43470-2005-420DA-6CTA-s-lost-4-cylinder-150-hrs!!!!

Alex, I just spoke with Chuck @ CB Marine Diesel about the valve seat issue. He said it was an isolated issue on newer, 2004/5 motors and 1 out of 5 for a very short production run were machined improperly causing the failure at relatively low hours. They identified the machine and corrected. Mine are not at risk. However it is still recommended that the valves be adjusted. He is going to review my survey and get back to me with recommendations that he said can be completed where she is while winterized relatively inexpensively. So i will let you know what he says. Thanks to you by the way for the refferal.

 

[SeaNile]

The other thing that is hard to put a price on is peace of mind. If it makes you feel better then get the stuff done. These internet forums bring every flaw to the surface and magnify them 1000x. For all the trouble tree engine out there we read about the few failures. If we read everything out there there Porsche would never had sold a single Boxster (IMS failure), Benz with trans issues, Cats with soft blocks, etc.

Sure it's a risk not to have the work done but then again there are countless engines running fine without the adjustment, either due to clueless owners, ignorance, misinformed....

I wouldn't look to run it for a season but the 150 miles to get it home and to a local certified Cummins tech is not an unreasonable risk to take.

 

[floriduramax1]

Max, do you know what it cost to have Cummins engine repaired if it swallows a valve? ..............it'll make $300 valve adjustment job look like $0.0000000002c.

So if you had a boat to take home with 750hrs and NO history of valve adjustments you would still take the chance?..........just saying.

Well as to your first question, My dad had a 24hr diesel road service and a shop with 15 mechanics in Houston during the oil boom of the 70's. I didn't have a "childhood" like everyone else. I rebuilt my first Cummins at 9 years old. It was a NTC 350 big cam and was an "in frame" in an Auto Car in the middle of the "patch". I remember everyone standing around taking bets on me torquing head bolts! I made it through one! I have spent my whole life working on and around diesels of every type. I'm not a diesel "newbie". We flew a Cat tech to inspect the Mikelson in my sig in Cancun and upon his opinion that they were "healthy" with 2200+ hours we elected to bring her here and then have all the work done, especially with what the computer report showed. Sorry for the story, I was trying to show that I am not just throwing opinions out without any knowledge.

My comment was based on his words "I just had a pre purchase survey by a Cummins mechanic. The 6CTA's have 750 hours and upon inspection and fluid analysis everything looked great. The only issue found was the drain fittings on the bottom of the turbos need to be replaced, they are corroded."

If those engines can't make the 150 mile trip without sucking a valve, I would reconsider the purchase. If I had a reputable Cummins Tech say they sounded great, and of course my own ears, then I personally would make the trip home. Once you start tearing into something ie. "corroded fittings on bottom of turbo"...etc, things can go south quick and the closer to home the more control you have IMHO

I have 6 techs (very good ones) and they can make a mistake at any moment. So just because a "certified Cummins tech" adjust valves before trip doesn't mean he can't screw something else up in the process. In my opinion it's a no brainer. 1st...make the seller take care of the maintenance that should have been done or if it was just "to good of a deal" and he refuses to spend any more money on it, then I would bring my own "certified tech". 2nd...take her home and start over with all maintenance. Again...IMHO..

 

[Alex F]

Alex, I just spoke with Chuck @ CB Marine Diesel about the valve seat issue. He said it was an isolated issue on newer, 2004/5 motors and 1 out of 5 for a very short production run were machined improperly causing the failure at relatively low hours. They identified the machine and corrected. Mine are not at risk. However it is still recommended that the valves be adjusted. He is going to review my survey and get back to me with recommendations that he said can be completed where she is while winterized relatively inexpensively. So i will let you know what he says. Thanks to you by the way for the refferal.

Excellent news, Russ. I'm glad you got in touch with him. BTW, I don't remember if I told you that he's the #1 Cummins shop used by our local MM. So, this is not some mom and pop shop that will tell you to buzz off when you call back with an issue (after their service was done).

 

[Alex F]

Well as to your first question, My dad had a 24hr diesel road service and a shop with 15 mechanics in Houston during the oil boom of the 70's. I didn't have a "childhood" like everyone else. I rebuilt my first Cummins at 9 years old. It was a NTC 350 big cam and was an "in frame" in an Auto Car in the middle of the "patch". I remember everyone standing around taking bets on me torquing head bolts! I made it through one! I have spent my whole life working on and around diesels of every type. I'm not a diesel "newbie". We flew a Cat tech to inspect the Mikelson in my sig in Cancun and upon his opinion that they were "healthy" with 2200+ hours we elected to bring her here and then have all the work done, especially with what the computer report showed. Sorry for the story, I was trying to show that I am not just throwing opinions out without any knowledge.

My comment was based on his words "I just had a pre purchase survey by a Cummins mechanic. The 6CTA's have 750 hours and upon inspection and fluid analysis everything looked great. The only issue found was the drain fittings on the bottom of the turbos need to be replaced, they are corroded."

If those engines can't make the 150 mile trip without sucking a valve, I would reconsider the purchase. If I had a reputable Cummins Tech say they sounded great, and of course my own ears, then I personally would make the trip home. Once you start tearing into something ie. "corroded fittings on bottom of turbo"...etc, things can go south quick and the closer to home the more control you have IMHO

I have 6 techs (very good ones) and they can make a mistake at any moment. So just because a "certified Cummins tech" adjust valves before trip doesn't mean he can't screw something else up in the process. In my opinion it's a no brainer. 1st...make the seller take care of the maintenance that should have been done or if it was just "to good of a deal" and he refuses to spend any more money on it, then I would bring my own "certified tech". 2nd...take her home and start over with all maintenance. Again...IMHO..

Good story, Max. It's great that you have intensive experience with diesels. This is exactly what we need in this thread.

I try to simplify the situation and look at it in the following way (from a buyer point of view). I'm buying a great and clean boat with rock solid preferred engines, which passed the mechanical survey very well. I know that those 6CTAs have great reputation. However, I came across number of reports about swallowed valves. One of the reports was on an engine that just passed the survey. So, I have two questions to myself:

1-Why is this happening?
2-How can I avoid this from happening with my engines?

As we clearly see the answers are obvious:
1-Lack of valve lash adjustments during recommended time frame.
2-Spend couple hundred bucks to do the valve adjustments and don't worry about it for another 500-600hrs.

Is it worth to gable $300 insurance vs. $12K possible failure? IMO, it's not worth it, specially if you have recommended certified Cummins shop standing by to do whatever you wish.

In regards to the questions like "....if those engines can't run 150miles.....", I'm positive that even if Russ won't do a single thing (old oil, old fuel filters, old coolant filter, no valve adjustments, etc.), but turns the keys and drives the boat she will get him home in the following 6hrs. The only point is here, is this the best approach? Obviously not.

 

[390x]

It seems obvious that a $300 valve adjustment is well worth it. However, Russ was talking about 7k in maintenance recommended by Cummins, which, to me, is not worth it without a very good explanation as to why.