cooling system winterized properly?

C

capz

New Member
Mar 11, 2007
336
Quincy, MA
Boat Info
Sea Ray 270DA, Garmin 545s
Engines
Merc 7.4L Bravo III
I installed a new water heater recently. The exchanger hoses were looped together. When unplugged, a clear liquid started siphoning out. I expected green stuff. Is it clear for marine applications or do I need to worry about a cracked block? :smt009
 
It would be helpful to know if your engine is raw water cooled or if it has is closed cooling system. Also, if there are one or two sets of hoses connected together. I'll try to answer for all 3 scenarios. But in any case you should not have clear liquid.

The usual practice is to loop the potable water inlet to the potable hot water outlet. This allows the potable water system to have non-toxic antifreeze flow through your water system without the need to fill the 5 gallons or more in your water heater. If this is the case then you should see pink or possibly blue but not clear liquid here.

If you have closed cooling on your engine it would not be necessary to remove the non potable side of the system that comes from your engines cooling system as this is already filled with antifreeze. If your engine cooling system has antifreeze in it then so should the loop to the water heater.

If you have a raw water system, they may have by-passed the water heater for the same reasons as for the potable system, although the coolant side of the water heater has less capacity. Again, in this case they should have used antifreeze to replace the raw water in the system - the hoses should have pink, blue or some kind of antifreeze in them.

Let us know more details and we can help troubleshoot any possible damage to the system.
 
The boat is raw-water cooled. I'll start from the beginning. Last season, when the marina was hauling the boat, water started spraying from the water heater exchanger hoses. The ends had corroded on the heater. The quick fix was to loop them together. They then winterized the cooling and fresh water systems. Pink stuff is in the fresh water system (not looped, guess they didn't want to save antifreeze).
So the looped hoses are the one outlet from the thermostat housing and the return to the circulating pump. I installed the new heater, unplugged the hoses to attach to the heat exchanger, and saw the clear liquid, and lots of it. I assumed it was sea water but thought later it might be a clear antifreeze. Could it be a new environmentally friendly antifreeze?
 
Capz:

As Sea Gull stated above, there should NOT be anything but antifreeze in those hoses. Is the boat in the water or out of the water when you replaced the HWH. If it is in the water, then just openeing the sea cock will let raw water into the system....upto the water line.

Sometimes, you really can't see the "pink" when it's coming out of a hose....it looks clear. Do two things....fill a clear jug with what ever the liquid is that is coming out of the hose and look at it then....the second thing....feel it....if it is antifeeze, it will be "slippery"....kind of oily.....
 
Put the clear liquid in a water glass and put it in the freezer. See what happens.
 
If I were in your shoes, I would talk to the folks who did the winterizing. If they did it wrong, they will be the ones who will have to rectify any damage that may have occured anyway so it's best to get them involved now while the boat is still dry docked.
 
Well. . .I would take the MSDS with a good dose of Salt. You should see the MSDS for compressed AIR. Oui!

Although anti-freeze is inherently clear, anything the marina would use or anything you would buy would be dyed. It would be highly, highly irresponsible to handle non-dyed glycol.

If it truly is undyed glycol. . .. then you need to give the maintenance crew heck because you will have an interesting time trying to figure out when you got all the glycol out of the system!!

If it is NOT glycol. . .and is water. . .then you better start looking for damage throughout the boat. . . and start yellling loudly.
 
I took goblue's advice and put some in the freezer. This morning a jar filled 3/4 was frozen solid :smt089 I'm waiting to hear back from the yard. From here on I'll be doing maintenance myself. At least anything that doesn't involve pulling the engine. Over the winter I've been taking a marine tech intro course and gathering the right tools. From what I've learned, the marine service industry is not streamlined like the automotive industry. There's a lot of "technicians" out there under- qualified to do the job. I have a long way to go, but at least if I cause damage on my boat, I'll feel better knowing it was my screw up.
 
I plopped the frozen liquid on the service manager's desk. He looked concerned and wanted to see for himself. We went down to the yard, he saw the liquid and tasted it. I did the same. It tasted a little sweet, as it should. He told me they use antifreeze dyed pink with a freezing point of 50 below and it will lose its color over the winter. He seemed confident all is fine with the engine.
Since my freezer doesn't get anywhere near 50 below, does anyone know if antifreeze will turn to a hard slush, and seem frozen, but not to the point of expanding enough to crack a block? If it stays as a liquid, then I have to assume the manager is protecting the yard, feeding me bs, while hoping the engine didn't crack. Besides cracking, should I worry about internal corrosion even if it was winterized with some salt water left over? It could be eating itself from the inside out and the problems won't arise until later. Then it's on me.
 
I have been using the "pink" antifreeze for about 15 years now. I have at least 7-8 gallons left over that are stored in my OUTSIDE shed. Some of those gallons have been there for over 2 years.....they are ALL still VERY pink.....

Also, every spring, when I re-commission the systems, PINK comes out of the exhaust, the AC outflow, the fucets, etc....

The pink stuff will "slush-up", but it will NOT feeze solid in Freezer.

One more thought just came to mind....is the pink in your fresh water system still pink....how come it didn't turn white.....????? :smt017

Sounds like BS.....
 
Pink turning clear does not sound right to me either. Every year after winterizing I take the left over antifreeze in the container and sit it on my trailer so I can see it all winter. Every really cold spell I check it to see if it is slush or liquid. Every time it was still liquid :thumbsup: .

If it were me I would be skeptical. Let us know the outcome.

Mark
 
I'll definitely keep you updated. I probably won't know until the boat's re-commissioned (debating whether to do that myself, I've been told bravo 3's are a pain in the.....uhh.....transom). I did want to inspect the risers and extensions anyway. Maybe I'll check the manifolds while I'm at it. Is it overkill to take off the heads and have a look at the cylinders? I figure it doesn't matter whether I see any damage to the block or the sound of my engine seizing let's me know. What does that sound like anyway?? Is it a silent death or a train wreck? I'm thinking it sounds like when the T-Rex escaped it's pen in Jurassic Park. And there I am screaming like Newman from Seinfeld right before he gets eaten. :smt001
 
I'd rather not say. I'm not out to trash anyone. And I don't want this business judged by a mistake made by one person. I might feel differently later if my boat has issues and they don't handle the situation right.
I got some good info tonight from a seasoned pro who's worked on race engines. He said they probably don't pull thermostats when winterizing. He said it's a common newbie mistake to run the engine up to temp and assume the thermostat has opened. You'd think they would at least look and see if antifreeze is coming out the exhaust. Sadly that's not always the case. He also said it's irresponsible for any yard to winterize a fresh water system without bypassing the water heater. My yard does not do this. In fact the hose wasn't even disconnected from the fresh water tank. They just ran antifreeze through the whole system. That'll be fun flushing it all out.
 
Capz,

I've read with some interest about how your boat was winterized. Your race engine friend is pretty accurate. What appears to have happened it that the engine lines (heat) to the water heater were not winterized properly. This specifically occurs when you are feeding antifreeze into the engine and not all the lines are circulating.

The lines which pass engine heat to the water heater are particularily sensitive. On a number of engines, they require the thermostat to be removed to circulate the those lines. However, it is very possible that the rest of engine was protected. The best way to determine this is to drain fluid from one of the exhaust manifold hoses and put it in the freezer. I am pretty sure that you will find that stuff will come out pink.

In regards to the "clear" liquid, that is consistent with water. Pink antifreeze only turns clear/fails when it mixed with a high concentration of water/seawater.

The other matter is how the fresh water (drinking) was winterized. Most mechanics disconnect the supply line at the pump and feed antifreeze into the system after bypassing the hot water heater (this "exchange" bypass is different from the engine "heat" bypass). After running it through the various facets, heads etc., most mechanics will reconnect the supply line (the water tank itself should be empty). Some will even go so far to reconnect the "exchange" bypass once the water heater has finished draining. By doing so, means that normal commissioning activities are shortened.

I am curious what you find in the exhaust manifold.

-John
 
Well. . .I bought my boat last year. The fresh water systems were not flushed until July. Everything was Pink. I also have a few jugs of anti-freeze in the garage. It has been there for years and it is pink. I can tell you the stuff in my CAR engine is not clear. That stuff is basically been in the engines for several YEARS.

What I am saying is: The dyes *do not* break down over time. Think about it. . .if you were dying glycol to ensure that you don't accidently drink it -> wouldn't you as the manufacturer ensure the dye held up over time? Think of the lawsuits if it didn't.

So: you have an issue. The simplest explanation is the one I read above: they missed this part of the system. The worst case scenario involves engine damage. . but supposedly Merc Engines have "freeze plugs" that should provide SOME protection.

If you can verify what is in the engines without taking them apart, then do that. If you can't. . .best to have the yard do the work so that if something really, really bad has happened you don't get in the he-said she-said game. Not sure I would pay the yard to do anything beyond verifying that engines aren't trashed.

I dumped my "reputable" yard after an incident where they did not back up their work. I now work with someone much less reputable, and much cheaper. Hopefully, the quality of work is better. When winterizing my engines, this person specifically was checking to ensure that glycol was pouring out the right places, as discussed by the gentleman above.
 
The way I see it, if antifreeze did not enter those exchanger hoses, it did not enter the engine. Unless I'm misunderstanding how the cooling system works. But now that I'm thinking hard about it, you still should see pink out the exhaust with the thermostat closed.

Please correct me if I'm wrong here. If the engine is cool (t-stat closed), antifreeze will run out the exhaust as well as enter the circulating pump, but it won't enter the engine completely due to the old water being held back by the t-stat. When up to temp (t-stat open), the only difference in the coolant (seawater) flow is that water is now allowed to exit the block and outlet to exhaust.

Now on my system, the inlet hose, to the water heater exchanger, comes from an auxiliary fitting right on the thermostat housing, starboard side, middle bottom of the housing. I'm unsure of what this passage looks like in the housing, but I would assume it would connect to the coolant exhaust passage from the engine (need hot water for the exchanger to work, correct?). So if pink circulated out the engine and through the exhaust when they winterized, it definitely should be present in these hoses......but...............
the water I saw, at least from the inlet hose on the housing, could not have come from the block because the thermostat was closed when I pulled them apart......Ahyuh.......Now I'm confused and rambling.
I'll find out more over the weekend. My friend told me where to look for outside cracks (middle of the block, between cylinders 4&6 and 3&5). He also said the freeze plugs might be pushed out a bit. Why didn't I think of that?
 
Most engines will circulate the block, heads and intake manifold with the thermostat closed. When your engine was winterized (assuming for a moment it was done properly), antifreeze was fed to the raw water pump which then fed the engine's water pump (front of engine). This device then pressurizes the block, heads, intake manifold and exhaust manifolds with raw water. That's why when you start the engine, raw water flows from the exhaust.

I warm engines up (thermostat open) before I feed the antifreeze in because you get better circulation on the smaller hoses such as those that feed your water heater. I also use a minimum of 5 gallons of pink for each V8 engine.

Techniques and yards differ on this. Some winterize by draining hoses (time consuming and flawed), others by the technique I described. What is important is that sufficient antifreeze be circulated in the engine. The fact that your water heater hoses did not have sufficient anti-freeze in them should not alarm you as much as finding the same issue with an engine block/exhaust mainfold hose.

To check this, all you have to do is remove one of the aforementioned hoses and check a sample. It will go a long way toward making you feel better about this.

Finding a block crack is not easy. The "freeze" plugs are a misnomer. Those plugs are in place to remove the sand from the engine casting. Every once and while one will "pop" out if an engine freezes but all that usually indicates is that it has gotten cold enough to crack the block.

Check one of the major block hoses and let me know what you find.
 
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