Considering 380DA w/CATS

W

Warren

Guest
Our sailboat is now sold. So after after our C&C41AC, Jazz V, is launched we're boatless and looking for a 380DA, preferably with CAT engines. (ex-Sailor, remember!) Anyway, I have asked my broker to investigate a listing and Dominic suggested that I put out a board topic to walk me through this process and to help check out a specific listing.

I am aware of the exhaust issues (largely due to CSR posted help - thanks all!). Before we submit and offer - I wonder if there are comments or recommendations on the CAT 3116 engines (Dominic indicated that there were factory modifications??) or on this listing:

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet&currencyid=100&boat_id=1670095&checked_boats=1670095&back=%2Fcore%2Flisting%2Fcache%2FsearchResults.jsp%3Fblc%3D10079%26manc%3D9137%26uom%3D126%26type%3D%2528Power%2529%2BExpress%26ftc%3D64190%26currency%3DUSD%26units%3DFeet%26duom%3D126%26sm%3D3%26wuom%3D126%26ywbtc%3D16410%26currencyid%3D100%26currencyid%3D100%26luom%3D126%26toLength%3D40%26ps%3D30%26ps%3D30%26ftid%3D101%26fromLength%3D38%26man%3Dsea%2Bray%26slim%3Dquick%26so%3D0%26n%3D4%253A1%253A41241%253A44153%253A147&searchtype=

It is a long trip from SC to Toronto and if we were successful in purchasing we might trailer her to the NYC area and drive up the Hudson and home.
:smt001

This would be our first power boat. Any comments about the listing, mechanical issues or purchasing suggestions would be appreciated!
Warren

Soon to be Boatless in Toronto!!
 
Warren:

I'm sure that our local CAT expert will be here shortly, but after looking at the listing you posted, if Iwere a serious 380DA purchaser, I would be getting in contact with the listing broker and opening a dialogue on this vessel.

The boat seems fairly priced, and remember, that's an asking price!

It has fresh bottom paint, wax and canvas. As an added value (no comment on wether or no its needed) a bow thruster.

The comment line says that it is "scheduled for engine service"...I would be curious to know what that is. CAT major service is at 250 Hrs and then again at 1000hrs. This boat shows 500hours.

My other comment, and I've shared this with you already, is that in 1999 the toilet is in the shower......You, or the admiral, will have to decide that for yourself.

The elcetronics all appear to be '99 vintage, outdated, but may still provide good service. I would ad some $$$CAN for future updates....

Good luck and keep us posted....
 
Warren,

Happened across a 2001 380 with Caterpillars that is being offered by Marine Max in Port Clinton Ohio. It is listed for $210,000.00 and looked pretty clean from the pictures posted. You might be interested in taking a look at her. She is alot closer to Toronto and it is a fresh water boat.

We are so happy with our CAT powered SeaRay, I feel diesel is the only way to go when you get over 20,000 lbs.

Good luck with your search.
 
Warren,

Lets not get confused on the boats here. The only exhaust issues I am aware of were on gasoline powered 380A's only. There has never been an issue on exhaust or water ingestion on diesel powered boats.

There were some Caterpillar engine issues in about 1999 or so with some vendor supplied OEM components. I believe the only one affecting the 3116 was a soft valve stem on some valves from TRW. Caterpillar has repaired all those engines that they knew were affected, usually with an engine replacement since the end result of a valve failure was a dropped valve which is almost always a terminal event for a diesel engine. The valve problem usually occurred before about 125 hours of running time and affected certain serial numbers above # 6600. The chances of finding a 3116 with unrepaired valves is highly unlikely. So much so that Cat stopped warranting the TRW valves in about Jan of 2005.

If you are a serious buyer, then there are some other concerns about the whole deal you need to address even before you talk to the selling broker. Any boat buy/sell contract should have contingencies for you to do your due diligence. The deal should be contingent upon your having a marine survey of the hull, and a complete mechanical survey on the engines, transmissions and generator all done by qualified surveyors you, not someone on the selling end or location, select. The engine survey should be done by a Caterpillar servicing dealer who has access to Cat's warranty database and oil sampling lab. The Cat guy will also have the right test gear for Cat engines. You should specify that you want a blow-by test done .........tests crankcase pressures and is much cheaper than doing a compression test or bore scoping and will tell the same things about engine wear.

The contract should also contain contingencies for a sea trial, the results of which must be acceptable to you, a contingency that you are able to bind an agreed val ue hull policy on the boat before closing and they you are able to secure acceptable financing.

Doing this the right way takes a lot of time, a lot of negotiation, it is not a quick or a particularly easy process since it usually takes several trips to the boat, but it will remove all the risk, except the one about your spending one hell of a lot of money on a boat! You can short cut some of the due diligence, but you substantially increase your risk in doing so.

I quickly glanced at the photos on the yachtworld listing and can tell that the boat is documented by the USCG which makes proving ownership very easy.......this may be important if you are going to export the boat. Whoever serviced the engines last used the correct filters, but I don't like all the bolt heads showing rust. I suspect you are looking at a boat that the owner does not do much in the engine room himself but relies on paying others to do it. Other than watching for signs of deferred maintenance, the boat looks decent.

On a Cat powered boat if this age, there are some things you need to plan on doing before running the boat much.

1.500 hours gets the life of the water pump seals and they may already be leaking. Plan on replacing both seawater pumps.
2. Plan on having a Cat technician reset all the valves and injectors...all done under the valve covers at the same time. Most people who complain about 3116 problems omit this service and run the engines hard. The valves tighten as parts wear and sooner or later the engine eats one of them.
3. Have the heat exchangers removed and cleaned.
4. Have the transmission oil coolers removed and cleaned.
5. Replace the coolant with Cat pre-mix.

On the Westerbeke generator, hove the exhaust riser replaced...its probably clogged with carbon.

I love the 380DA with Cat engines........super boats. Enjoy shopping and look at it like its a pilgrimage, not a trip to the
gas station.
 
Thanks for the great comments and timely replies Dominic, Bill, and particularly Frank! Lots of information to digest here. My broker is making the first contact and if things seem positive we will make an offer incorporating your plan and my broker's experience, Frank. (Brokers now have reciprocal agreements and the deposit will be held by MY Canadian broker - a significant advantage when doing international transactions.)

Yes, I would have retouched the rust spots and removed and restored the items subject to corrosion myself - but I'm owned 3 sailboats and am used to this kind of thing as long as there is expert confirmation that all systems are fundamentally OK.

I'm sure that other questions will arise on this or other listings but for now, I sincerest thanks for your coaching and advice!
Cheers,
Warren

Still shopping for a 380DA!
 
I would just second some of Dominic's comments, except that the head in the shower was never a big deal for us. We had an '02 380 with gas engines, and that was never a problem.

The 380 is a good boat, and yours would handle even better than mine did. And, mine handled great. My slip where I kept it had about 6 inches on each side, and after the maiden voyage, I don't think my platform ever touched a piling. In tough seas, it was also solid.

Good luck. If my 380 had diesel engines, I might still have it!

ps- if you are serious, get your broker to an offer and secure a deposit with all the usual provisos and contingencies, so the owner is now talking to you alone. after that, you can work through all of Frank's issues.
 
Warren, Listen hard to the advice given here. Thanks to Frank and the rest of the GREAT guys on this board iam right now in FT LAUDERDALE bringing my 1998 450DA up to snuff. I used Franks neg tools/style etc... and foung a real solid boat for a price if i told you, you would not believe me. I asked Frank to look over my shoulder and Dom, Skip and the whole gang, AND A WHOLE BUNCH OF GREAT KNOWLEDGE AND ADVICE WAS GIVEN AND USED THAT got me a great boat at a REALLY good price. Moral here is, ASK questions and do what they suggest. It will payoff hugh in the end!!!!!!!!!!!!!GOOD LUCK JC
 
Thanks for the post JC and CONGRATULATIONS - beautiful boat!!! Sounds like you are on a wonderful new adventure. We can all relate and wish you a terrific time.. I am listening very carefully to this wise advice and do really appreciate the time that these experts spend with a helping hand out to a power boating newbie. 'Guess most boaters are generous with our time and talents - even lapsed sailors!:smt043
Happy times JC,
Warren
 
Thanks Warren and i wish you the best of luck & good hunting! I have no doubt you will end up with a GREAT boat. :thumbsup: JC
 
Warren:

A few more thoughts with respect to the 380DA-D. I have plenty of experience with getting around the ER with the 8.1s. The 13' beam may give you a great ride, but I always wished for another foot or two when I was in there doing some maintence. I especially could have used some more Cubic Feet when I changed the Impellers.

A neighbor and good friend had a 2003 380DA-D with the 3126s. He sold it last summer. I spent some limited time in his bilge and I can tell you that it made mine, with gassers, feel cavernous. Those CATs in the 380 take up a lot of room. On the 380 , the hydruaulic engine lift is for the center portion of the ER. If you need to get to the batteries, or the Vacuflush, or in this case, the bowthruster Battery Charger, you are going to have to lift the Port Engine hatch...... and even then it will be tight. On the Starboard side, where the Genie is located, You will have to lift the Starboard Engine hatch. The Starboard hatch will be a PITA to lift, regardless of the engine configuration, because you will first have to move what ever "Stuff" you have stored under the lounge and then remove the lounge itself. When the Center Hydraulic lift, and both side hatches are open, you have a lot more space to get in for daily maint....but you will still wish for more.

I have limited experience, OK none, changing the Racor filters on my 410DA, but it sure looks a little tight. I would imagine that with approx 1 foot less in beam, that would not be a "fun" time on the 380DA-....

Just didn't want to sugar coat all the comments and thought I would note the not so nice things....

In any event, the 380DA-D itself is a great boat. It has plenty of nice features.....good luck with your venture and keep us all posted on your progress....
 
I do appreciate the "balanced" reportage, Dominic! Yes, I have noticed from the photos how huge those Cats really are.. But boats are full of compromises.. right! I am 6'1" and do find it claustrophobic working in the reverse transom of my 41' C&C - the transom tapers to nothing - so working on the steering cables or pedestal base is ridiculous! But I have a talented, short, friend who helps out if I get really worried about getting out feet first!!

From you comments I gather that there are 3 cockpit hatches to the ER. Do you think that there is room to climb into the outboard side of the 380 Cat engines for troubleshooting and service?

Warren
 
Warren said:
From you comments I gather that there are 3 cockpit hatches to the ER. Do you think that there is room to climb into the outboard side of the 380 Cat engines for troubleshooting and service?

Warren
Click to expand...

I don't think there's room to climb in. The batteries are below the port, and the generator below the starboard. I don't think there's anything to stand on in there, and those outboard hatches are tight, being only maybe 2 1/2 wide by about 4-5 long.
 
Most of us have developed the "Caterpillar stretch" for servicing the outboard side of the engines.

Luckily, there is very little you need to do there because the filter locations are all inboard. Most everything can be accessed from the rear of the engine by reaching around or by the Caterpillar stretch achieved by laying across the top of the motor..........having a double jointed pet monkey with some mechanical skills helps some too!
 
I'll ask the vendor if the pet monkey is included! Hope he understands. Thanks for the "on the money" answers.. Feel guilty that I can't answer your questions yet. 'Guess nobody wants to know how to reef a 350 sq.ft. main in 25 kn of wind..

Warren
 
Warren,
As an ex sailor (Catalina 320) I have always coveted C&C yachts (although I am not partial to aft cabin's).
You'll fine more information about Searay's and boats in general here that you will almost anywhere else.
Enjoy the move to the "dark side" as my sailing friends said when I moved to the enlightened world of power boating! Oh yeah.....I do know how to reef a main !!! :thumbsup:
 
Warren, Enjoy the ride- that's the right answer on going from sailing to powerboats. Some of us on this board have been sailors, I raced sailboats my whole life and still love to race sailboats but now cruising .....put me on a powerboat anyday-that way I can tell you what day I will be there and just about what time! Welcome aboard. I am like ylwjacket .."I might still own my 380DA if It had diesels", I figure I "saved" 12K when I bought oil-burners. My 380 was a 2000. How's that for boaters logic?
 
Warren,

Just to keep things going on this thread, CONGRATULTIONS... :smt038 ......I read in the other forum here., that you put in an offer on the 380DA-D......

Do have any plans yet to go down and look over the boat?

keep us posted....
 
Thanks a lot Dominic! We are excited about the possibility of owning a 380DA-D, more than you can imagine, BUT, can't get too emotional - there may be a counter offer OR I might not like what I see.. If the offer is accepted I will be in SC sometime next week!

Wow! Gee! Hurrah!
Warren

(Not emotional about this.. honest!)
 
Thanks JC and all on your congrats for the offer submitted on the 380DA-D! Appreciated! A new wrinkle - 24 hrs and no reply on our offer - which is a mystery.. But one of my earlier contacts in the search for a 380 e-mailed yesterday and I told him what was happening AND he said that he has a private MMax listing (not on web) for a pristine 400DA with Cat engines. He indicated a price which would take the boat IF my broker was not involved. And it is just $5M over our offer on the 380. Here's the listing:

http://central.marinemax.com/searchengine/Details.aspx?bvdid=1268&type=A&diid=867158

The 400DA has 600 original hrs and it has the white int., no radar, but the ER and general fit looks great. And, of course, it is a much larger platform. May I have your opinions on the 400 vs 380 both with Cat 3116 engines (incl. performance, reliability, livability, etc.). Even if my offer were accepted - I could wiggle off and buy the 400 so your suggestions are important!
Warren

Unexpected turn of events :huh:
 
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