Completely non-boating related topic.

[OldSkool]

Maybe we should make Isreal an unincorporated territory of the United States and fund the Massad. Let them do what we neither have the conviction or heart to do. The real problem is that our weakness is our lack of faith. We are scared to stand up because we are afraid to die.

You fight radical faith with radical faith. Once they understand that we are not afraid to die as a population then we have a tool to use for our way of life. We keep sending valiant men and women to fight for us. Until we ourselves have no fear to fight they will continue to bully us.

So now you are going to ask if I think everyone should be involved in the military and God? Yes in my opinion. Sanctions tell the ruthless we are pu$$ies and unwilling to rain fire down for our way of life.

IMHO. Just saying. Or whatever disclaimer folks are using now a days.

 

[JediJD]

This is too big an issue for sound bytes, but be very wary of the military providing your solutions (see, eg, "if you are in the hammer business, everything's a nail"). Game theory includes a provision for randomness, and for acting against one's own best interest. The fact that Iran "might" choose a MAD option isn't a reason to be an aggressor, any more than the fact that Chechnya "might" do the same thing. If you choose the easy out...some sort of preemptive action, you set a policy and the next guy knows that when he has the opportunity, he has to use it or lose it...a bad template to establish. As nuclear technology proliferates, the options shuffle, but that Pandora's box...having been opened, needs to be accepted. Ultimately, as much as everyone would like to believe that gunslinging is the answer...it is only a temporary solution. The long term solution is to raise the economic level of those we fear. Pushing them into a corner raises the level of instability and unpredictability.

 

[comsnark]

Maybe we should . . . . fund the Massad. Let them do what we neither have the conviction or heart to do.

Given the life expectancy of Iranian scientists. . . .I am not entirely sure this is not the case.

 

[MonacoMike]

Given the life expectancy of Iranian scientists. . . .I am not entirely sure this is not the case.

:thumbsup::smt043

 

[OldSkool]

JediJD,
Your point is well taken and I would believe it would be most valid to those who oppose us for economic reasons. Irans opposition towards us is our faith in God or any deity counter to their faith. Anyone who believes the more money will cure this animosity is gravely mistaken. Their war has been going on for centuries and our talk will not change the course.

 

[JediJD]

"In religion, as in war, truth is often the first casualty". The fact is that all Iranians DON'T want the destruction of other faiths or cultures. A few do. All Christians don't want returning soldiers and homosexuals to die in hell, or bomb abortion clinics...a few do. We often talk about the Muslim view of converting the world to Islam...but yesterday morning my Methodist minister reminded everyone our Biblical duty to "bring the word of God to all people" as well. For the most part, the extremists on both ends of the spectrum are drawn from the poorest and most disenfranchised...and then exploited by people further up the food chain for money or power. There are about a billion (give or take) Muslims in the world and a couple million (give or take) in the US. If random destruction and world domination were the genuine goal, we'd have a LOT bigger problem on our hands than we do now. Do a few of them want to gut you in your bed...probably. We have a few of those, too. Most want to take care of their families and be good servants of their Almighty...as do we. Before anyone gets too amped up about the geopolitic, try to remember that we are manipulated most easily by fear and threats. As long as somebody is screaming at us to "beware the boogeyman over there in the turban", we tend not to look at the boogeyman standing right next to us in a suit...just sayin'.

JediJD,
Your point is well taken and I would believe it would be most valid to those who oppose us for economic reasons. Irans opposition towards us is our faith in God or any deity counter to their faith. Anyone who believes the more money will cure this animosity is gravely mistaken. Their war has been going on for centuries and our talk will not change the course.

 

[hack4alivin]

Isn’t it funny how things work out? I wonder how Sadam would have handled the situation.

 

[OldSkool]

"In religion, as in war, truth is often the first casualty". The fact is that all Iranians DON'T want the destruction of other faiths or cultures. A few do. All Christians don't want returning soldiers and homosexuals to die in hell, or bomb abortion clinics...a few do. We often talk about the Muslim view of converting the world to Islam...but yesterday morning my Methodist minister reminded everyone our Biblical duty to "bring the word of God to all people" as well. For the most part, the extremists on both ends of the spectrum are drawn from the poorest and most disenfranchised...and then exploited by people further up the food chain for money or power. There are about a billion (give or take) Muslims in the world and a couple million (give or take) in the US. If random destruction and world domination were the genuine goal, we'd have a LOT bigger problem on our hands than we do now. Do a few of them want to gut you in your bed...probably. We have a few of those, too. Most want to take care of their families and be good servants of their Almighty...as do we. Before anyone gets too amped up about the geopolitic, try to remember that we are manipulated most easily by fear and threats. As long as somebody is screaming at us to "beware the boogeyman over there in the turban", we tend not to look at the boogeyman standing right next to us in a suit...just sayin'.

More great points JediJD. The problem like so many groups is that a small minority makes the most noise and speaks for on behalf of the silent majority who are afraid to or too complacent to speak up. Intimidation rules the day.
Our pastor made this statement last Sunday. “Truth without love is legalism/fascism and love without truth is social/religious sedation.”
As long as governments support a perceived truth of ruthlessness over their populace’s general beliefs then we must address that government for what it is in spite those who will not oppose their government.
I am not for the wanton killing of the innocent but I have little tolerance for dictators and fascist leaders.

 

[CV-23]

More great points JediJD. The problem like so many groups is that a small minority makes the most noise and speaks for on behalf of the silent majority who are afraid to or too complacent to speak up. Intimidation rules the day.
Our pastor made this statement last Sunday. “Truth without love is legalism/fascism and love without truth is social/religious sedation.”
As long as governments support a perceived truth of ruthlessness over their populace’s general beliefs then we must address that government for what it is in spite those who will not oppose their government.
I am not for the wanton killing of the innocent but I have little tolerance for dictators and fascist leaders.

That about sums it up!...Mike.

 

[Woody]

More great points JediJD. The problem like so many groups is that a small minority makes the most noise and speaks for on behalf of the silent majority who are afraid to or too complacent to speak up. Intimidation rules the day.
Our pastor made this statement last Sunday. “Truth without love is legalism/fascism and love without truth is social/religious sedation.”
As long as governments support a perceived truth of ruthlessness over their populace’s general beliefs then we must address that government for what it is in spite those who will not oppose their government.
I am not for the wanton killing of the innocent but I have little tolerance for dictators and fascist leaders.

In my own country I wouldn't either.

 

[wvsundancer]

I think my limited understanding of the "problems of the world" came from my time in Southeast Asia during the fall of Sigon in 1975. I looked at all the people flooding into our base at Korat and not one of them was sad that their country was falling into the hands of the NVA all they were worried about was themselves and how to get a ride to the land of the big BX. WE keep trying to put of western values into a situation were they do not apply. While not being one of these Bush hating people that was all for bringing the troops home ASAP. I am still saddened by the fact that once more our sons gave their lives for people who could not give one sh*t for the life of one of our sons or daughters. These "people" (please don't call me a racist) are only out for themselves.

 

[CV-23]

I think my limited understanding of the "problems of the world" came from my time in Southeast Asia during the fall of Sigon in 1975. I looked at all the people flooding into our base at Korat and not one of them was sad that their country was falling into the hands of the NVA all they were worried about was themselves and how to get a ride to the land of the big BX. WE keep trying to put of western values into a situation were they do not apply. While not being one of these Bush hating people that was all for bringing the troops home ASAP. I am still saddened by the fact that once more our sons gave their lives for people who could not give one sh*t for the life of one of our sons or daughters. These "people" (please don't call me a racist) are only out for themselves.

You have to fight to keep what you have....most of those people have nothing! The US is the Sheep Dog of the Third World and we are going broke running around trying to put all these fires out and save people while getting our soldiers killed. The rich in these countries stay rich and the poor stay poor. What's the old saying..."You don't miss what you never had". They don't understand the "old" American Way....you get what you work for! Now those who choose not to work want to take from the workers. When the workers start pushing back in the US, we are called radical/conservatives by the Left or Tea Party. The big problem now is the workers here are barely 51% now and most work for the Fed, State or Local Govt/County/Schools. No easy answers but the whole US needs to go on a diet on spending. I'm getting tired of feeding the lazy/fat people, Mike.

 

[northern]

wvsundancer
Well said. If residents of a nation will loose what they have they will fight for it. If some one else fights for them they do not care. Through out history all independent nations that have a large middle class had to fight internally to get what a very small percentage of the nation had. One needs only to look at place in Central and South America to see what an emerging middle class can accomplish.

 

[Lord Farringdon]

This is too big an issue for sound bytes, but be very wary of the military providing your solutions (see, eg, "if you are in the hammer business, everything's a nail"). Game theory includes a provision for randomness, and for acting against one's own best interest. The fact that Iran "might" choose a MAD option isn't a reason to be an aggressor, any more than the fact that Chechnya "might" do the same thing. If you choose the easy out...some sort of preemptive action, you set a policy and the next guy knows that when he has the opportunity, he has to use it or lose it...a bad template to establish. As nuclear technology proliferates, the options shuffle, but that Pandora's box...having been opened, needs to be accepted. Ultimately, as much as everyone would like to believe that gunslinging is the answer...it is only a temporary solution. The long term solution is to raise the economic level of those we fear. Pushing them into a corner raises the level of instability and unpredictability.

"In religion, as in war, truth is often the first casualty". The fact is that all Iranians DON'T want the destruction of other faiths or cultures. A few do. All Christians don't want returning soldiers and homosexuals to die in hell, or bomb abortion clinics...a few do. We often talk about the Muslim view of converting the world to Islam...but yesterday morning my Methodist minister reminded everyone our Biblical duty to "bring the word of God to all people" as well. For the most part, the extremists on both ends of the spectrum are drawn from the poorest and most disenfranchised...and then exploited by people further up the food chain for money or power. There are about a billion (give or take) Muslims in the world and a couple million (give or take) in the US. If random destruction and world domination were the genuine goal, we'd have a LOT bigger problem on our hands than we do now. Do a few of them want to gut you in your bed...probably. We have a few of those, too. Most want to take care of their families and be good servants of their Almighty...as do we. Before anyone gets too amped up about the geopolitic, try to remember that we are manipulated most easily by fear and threats. As long as somebody is screaming at us to "beware the boogeyman over there in the turban", we tend not to look at the boogeyman standing right next to us in a suit...just sayin'.

Well said JediJD, twice. As an ex New Zealand serviceman who has served on active service during the Gulf War 1991 and in Afghansitan shortly after 9/11, I understand what it is like to 'fight for freedom'. As a serviceman you don't want to let yourself down, your country down or let down the history of your service and the sacrifice that has gone before. You go to war or on war-like operations knowing that the only people you know you may have to let down is your wife and children when you return with a flag draped over your coffin. Yet the sense of duty forged through discipline, comaraderie, esprit de corps the honour of serving and representing those whose self sacrfice is now history and legend is so strong there is no doubt that you must perform and carry out the orders you are given, without question. My commisioning parchment says in part, " you are to observe and follow such orders and directions as from time to time you shall recieve from me or any of your superior officers according to the rules and discipline of war and our forces of New Zealand in persuance of the trust hereby reposed in you. The Queen" I take those words to heart. The words and oaths of allegiance may be different for the men and women of the US Armed Forces but the sense of duty and sacrifice is the same. And, for the US the sacrifice of these young men and women in Iraq has been real and saddening. I bow my head in honour and respect for their tragic loss of life. We must all be held accountable for their sacrifice. As JediJd says " As long as somebody is screaming at us to "beware the boogeyman over there in the turban", we tend not to look at the boogeyman standing right next to us in a suit." The politicians of all our countries, representing the people of our countries must use the military option as an absolutely last resort. Too often in my view, they are the first option. We, the people must ensure our politicians do not 'pull the trigger' before exhausting all other avenues in seeking lasting solutions to complex problems. Appeasement is not the answer and WWII is evidence enough of that! But when I hear people in the US and in my country vocalising military options (especially nuclear) to quell a perceived Muslim threat to our way of life, I simply look at the tragic loss of so many of (particualrly your) servicemen and servicewomen and think ..you died for no reason..they have learned nothing from your sacrifice. I am very sad.

Terry

 

[D-Sill-D]

Well said JediJD, twice. As an ex New Zealand serviceman who has served on active service during the Gulf War 1991 and in Afghansitan shortly after 9/11, I understand what it is like to 'fight for freedom'. As a serviceman you don't want to let yourself down, your country down or let down the history of your service and the sacrifice that has gone before. You go to war or on war-like operations knowing that the only people you know you may have to let down is your wife and children when you return with a flag draped over your coffin. Yet the sense of duty forged through discipline, comaraderie, esprit de corps the honour of serving and representing those whose self sacrfice is now history and legend is so strong there is no doubt that you must perform and carry out the orders you are given, without question. My commisioning parchment says in part, " you are to observe and follow such orders and directions as from time to time you shall recieve from me or any of your superior officers according to the rules and discipline of war and our forces of New Zealand in persuance of the trust hereby reposed in you. The Queen" I take those words to heart. The words and oaths of allegiance may be different for the men and women of the US Armed Forces but the sense of duty and sacrifice is the same. And, for the US the sacrifice of these young men and women in Iraq has been real and saddening. I bow my head in honour and respect for their tragic loss of life. We must all be held accountable for their sacrifice. As JediJd says " As long as somebody is screaming at us to "beware the boogeyman over there in the turban", we tend not to look at the boogeyman standing right next to us in a suit." The politicians of all our countries, representing the people of our countries must use the military option as an absolutely last resort. Too often in my view, they are the first option. We, the people must ensure our politicians do not 'pull the trigger' before exhausting all other avenues in seeking lasting solutions to complex problems. Appeasement is not the answer and WWII is evidence enough of that! But when I hear people in the US and in my country vocalising military options (especially nuclear) to quell a perceived Muslim threat to our way of life, I simply look at the tragic loss of so many of (particualrly your) servicemen and servicewomen and think ..you died for no reason..they have learned nothing from your sacrifice. I am very sad.

Terry

Ditto: all of the above, including JediJD......

 

[JediJD]

Hawk, dove, or simply policy wonk...you really owe it to yourself to read the Cato report on military spending http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/the-pentagon-budget-myth-vs-reality/. Cato is probably a little to the right of some, a little left of others, but the math is unassailable. The fact is that we have no financial choice but to severely cut military (and entitlement) spending. Whether or not you believe we should be the policemen of the world, enforcing our beliefs upon others (I don't), there is no money to do it...even if we wanted. There is no question severe cuts will be painful. However, they don't result in Americans having to defend themselves with water pistols. I'm a fan of Tea Party'esque fiscal responsibility, but they are delusional if they think that goal is going to attained while we spend $1t/yr on national defense. (Likewise, safety net types need to get used to the idea that we must also allow personal failure).