Carbon Monoxide - The Silent Killer

[IronMan]

I have read several threads on CSR and other sites regarding the use of generators on boats. All of them have resulted in a very opinionated discussions that went on for pages. The underlying message of safety often gets lost in the debate. Please do not hijack this thread with any of these arguments but feel free to post additional factual articles or educational resources so we can all be safe and enjoy our boats.

These first several articles are educational materials that every boater should read, this information may save your life.
http://www.dbw.ca.gov/Pubs/CO/CObroch.pdf
http://www.nmma.org/government/local/downloads/documents/carbonmonoxidepoisoningbrochure.pdf
http://www.boaterexam.com/canada/education/carbonMonoxide-en.aspx
http://www.oregon.gov/OSMB/safety/Carbon1.shtml
http://www.boatus.org/onlinecourse/ReviewPages/BoatUSF/Project/info6e.htm
http://www.uscgboating.org/articles/boatingview.aspx?id=114
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=129649

These two links are to articles about tragic events that resulted from generator use in the marine environment. As best I can determine, they are related to factory installed gensets, not because I am singling them out but because I wasn't able to locate any articles about portables that hadn't already been posted in this thread.
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_11152047
http://my.boatus.com/consumer/Kohler.asp

Finally, here is a list of CO detection devices recognized by the USCG for marine use.
http://www.uscgboating.org/articles/pdf/CO-DetectorForMarineUseInformation11Feb2008.pdf

My opinion has always been that the operation of any generator, whether it be portable or factory installed, is more dangerous than not using one at all and I personally choose not to use one. If you feel it is worth the risk, just be safe by being educated about the hazards and by installing redundant detection devices.

Here's to safe boating for all :thumbsup:.

 

[fc3]

I still think that "Carbon Monoxide - The Silent Killer" is a load of BS. CO isn't present alone in engine exhaust. It is mixed in with other stinky gases including unburned HC, SOx, etc. Everyone knows the smell of exhaust. I'm pretty darned sure that in each of those cases, someone smelled engine exhaust, but wished it away, "It's always done that and never been a problem." Until it was a problem and then too late.

Best regards,
Frank

 

[islandhopper00]

Dave thank you so much for the information. Hopefully this doesn't turn into another bashing session. I think this will serve well. People need information like this to help make the most informed decision, based upon each individual need. Kudos to you for the effort!

 

[IronMan]

I still think that "Carbon Monoxide - The Silent Killer" is a load of BS. CO isn't present alone in engine exhaust. It is mixed in with other stinky gases including unburned HC, SOx, etc. Everyone knows the smell of exhaust. I'm pretty darned sure that in each of those cases, someone smelled engine exhaust, but wished it away, "It's always done that and never been a problem." Until it was a problem and then too late.

Best regards,
Frank

You make a good point and I agree that in most cases of CO poisoning there were likely other scents that should have been a warning sign. Perhaps that may be why some have ignored it when they could smell it. CO by itself is not detectable by any of the human senses, thus it is called the silent killer. Perhaps some have felt that because they can smell it, it must not be CO. Seems contrary to common sense but it is a possibility.

Please heed Frank's [implied] warning and assume that CO, as well as other toxic gasses, exist in any exhaust like scent and take immediate action to remove yourself from danger and eliminate the source.

 

[fc3]

Or I'll be writing, "I told you so," when you screw up.

 

[papertrail]

I will admit that i am borderline paranoid about this. I have redundant CO monitors in the cabin, but still i dont relax.
Sometimes we are on the hook and the kids take nap in the cabin. I am constantly checking on them.
I wish i could relax a bit more, but i have heard too many horror stories.

 

[tobnpr]

I don't think you'd wake up from a sound sleep by "smelling it"... and there's enough deaths to confirm this. A bit of an irresponsible comment IMO.

One question that remains unanswered for me is related to the "type" of CO monitor. Many, if not most, of the boaters on this forum have stated that they go to Lowes or Home Depot and buy the el cheapo detectors for use aboard their boat.

The link you provided above for USCG approved detectors (good one, btw) explains the difference in the requirements for the UL certification for marine use devices. From what I read, this is related to the ability of the detector to withstand extreme temperature changes-going immediately from baking in a 158 degree oven for 24 hours to a freezer at -24 for 24 hours. Perhaps the "household" detectors cannot withstand layup in a frigid Illinois winter, nor temps of 120 degrees in a closed cabin in August.

The last thing I would skimp on would be a CO detector that I'm relying on to keep me and my family safe. Buy a unit that is UL Listed for MARINE use.

 

[mawyatt]

We have 3 marine CO detectors networked to the genset (the way the boat came), plus a portable household CO detector that reads the consentration.....and I keep an eye on the levels.

 

[fc3]

I don't think you'd wake up from a sound sleep by "smelling it"... and there's enough deaths to confirm this. A bit of an irresponsible comment IMO.

Not at all irresponsible if one actually thinks about the issue. Exhaust leaks do not usually begin as a total failure. Usually there is a small leak that gets progressively worse. That small leak can be smelled long before it becomes a dangerous leak.

I don't advocate irresponsible generator use. Have you missed the dozens of other posts I've made on the subject? What I object to is the ignorant statements that many of these articles make, that CO is a covert killer. It's nothing of the sort. The problem is that people ignore the warning signs for far too long, become complacent, then become a statistic.

What the deaths confirm is that those people did not take their generator maintenance seriously.

 

[spikedaddy99]

I have a question...Is there a difference between generator use on a boat, and generator use in a RV? Are there as many issues/concerns with RV generator use?

 

[RollerCoastr]

What the deaths confirm is that those people did not take their generator maintenance seriously.

But Frank, that suggests that a properly maintained generator doesn't present a CO risk, which of course, isn't true.

I think we should also discuss other sources. By volume, generators produce the LEAST amount. I have 650 hours on mine, and it has never set off the CO alarm, and while I know of many reports of generator-related incidents, I don't know anyone personally who has had a problem.

In contrast, my own dock nieghbor was nearly killed by the main exhaust "station wagon effect" in their cruiser.

 

[Groucho]

There are so many variables...It is wrong to generalize CO-genaerator use-bilge blower use etc.
As Frank said...it is many times a part of a bigger problem that has been ignored.
Good maintainence and common sense go a long way.

 

[islandhopper00]

There are so many variables...It is wrong to generalize CO-genaerator use-bilge blower use etc.
As Frank said...it is many times a part of a bigger problem that has been ignored.
Good maintainence and common sense go a long way.

Appearantly that only applies if your using an installed generator and not a portable unit, as witnessed by some of the posts here on csr. Common sense that is.

 

[Boatdave]

I've been witness to two seperate sets of death's from CO.
First one was over 20 years ago. 5 boats were rafted up and a few were running generators. An elderely couple was in a 36ft Chris Craft with small cabin windows close to the water.
They never woke up and they did not have their generator running.
The second was last year. Older houseboat. First time out on the beach with 2 couples. Had a CO Detector but no batteries in it. The Generator was leaking from the exhaust manifold. The last people to see them inside the boat said they were all liquored up. Found them the next day all in the same spot as they saw them last....

 

[fc3]

I have a question...Is there a difference between generator use on a boat, and generator use in a RV? Are there as many issues/concerns with RV generator use?

I don't think any reentry vehicles use gasoline generators.

But Frank, that suggests that a properly maintained generator doesn't present a CO risk, which of course, isn't true.

No it's not. But of the cases listed, well at least the ones I had enough patience to read, the problem was neglected maintenance. There's no "one button" solution. Stop, think, then do. When in doubt consult a genuine expert.

Best regards,
Frank

 

[srt8mag]

My two sisters and I were almost killed by CO.
July 4th, 1983. Farleigh Creek, Chesapeake Bay
It was a hot, still and muggy night. We were on our new Trojan 10 Meter International aft cabin with the ac and generator running. That night my two sisters and I went to sleep in the aft cabin and my parents, aunt, uncle and two cousins in the forward cabin. My sister woke up early in the morning and went forward to tell my mom that she was feeling sick and had a terrible headache. My Mom saw her cherry red lips and knew imediately that it was CO poisoning and yelled for my Dad to go back and get my other sister and me. My Dad found me unconscious on the floor and my sister semi-conscious in the bunk. They got us into the fresh air and then to the dock where the EMT's arrived with oxygen.
The EMT's estimated I had about 5 more minutes until I would have been dead and my sister about 10. I know that this was a long time ago (I was 8) but it's just an example. These were the days before CO monitors.

 

[Tonka Boater]

There's no "one button" solution. Stop, think, then do. When in doubt consult a genuine expert.

I don't think the OP or anyone else had suggested a "one button" solution.

I thought the post was intended to make people think...as you recommend. I think this post is a good PSA to remind us all of the dangers of CO.

I going on a limb to say most of us here on CSR are the "captains" of our vessels. I would say that most of our 1st mates, admirals and guests don't even think once about CO when enjoying our boats, let alone twice. Some do, but most probably don't. So for me, this post reminds me to remind others about the dangers of CO. No, I won't give an orientation before casting the lines but I will remind people as situations arise.

I think the OP had good intentions and I like the post.

.

 

[tobnpr]

Frank, you make a good point on the maintenance issue.

I had a survey done on a 36' Chris Sportfish that had an OEM (1984) 6.5 KW Onan (gas).

I was in the ER with the surveyor and noticed he was spending what seemed to me an unusual amount of time examining the exhaust elbow on the genset, and when I asked he told me that the older Onans were known to have a problem with premature failure of the elbow and CO leakage into the ER.

Maintenance of the exhaust system is clearly important. And to your point, there's too many boat owners that don't know how to get down and dirty in the ER- I'm not necessarily talking about fixing things, as much as just looking things over. A boat is not a car. Don't check the battery level in your car, get a jump start. Do that with your boat, and you can be stranded many miles offshore in some very bad weather. Murphy's law...things like a rotted hose failing that would be an inconvenience in a car can sink your boat (and you).

Every boat owner should be familiar with things to look for that would indicate possible trouble- including visual inspection of the exhaust system on the genset, as well as the mains. Rusted manifolds/risers, hose clamps...all signs of a potential problem. I know that a lot of boat owners don't want to wrench on their boats, but it's critical to know how to do visual inspections that might warrant a service call.

Srt8mag: Scary. I know you were too young to understand at the time, but do you recall what they found as the cause? Were the windows/hatches open, or was it an exhaust leak that found it's way through the bulkhead?
I know a guy that has a 10M Trojan, 1987 IIRC. Love the boat and the ride, but it was a real pig until he did a diesel conversion ten years ago and put a couple of Cummins' in there. She's a real screamer now.

 

[Uplate]

Get one of these. they are super accurate and help confirm accuracy of your hardwired units. I use it as a cabin backup when overnighting.
http://www.kwjengineering.com/products/carbon-monoxide/portable/pocket-co-300

I fired up my boat with the cabin door open at the slip, and within 6-8 minutes I read over 200ppm on this thing in the cabin.

My exhaust vents underwater, so that water filtering seems to do nothing or very little where CO is concerned.

If you run a camper top, this is also a good unit to hang in the camper while underway or on Genny.