Can you trust any brokers?

[missnmountains]

So, I am not going to trash anyone specific...yet, but are there any brokers out there that have any ethics or morals?

A few of you know I have been in the market for a late model 2007 or later 58 Sedan Bridge with low hours 250 or less.

A year ago we found one in Maryland though a broker in Ft. Lauderdale. After all negotiations were complete and contracts signed, we flew up and I paid for a captain to fly up for sea trial and review. Hotel, airfare, etc. for the both of us. The vessel passed. We went hard and paid deposits. The deal was a trade for my 48 plus cash. One week before the close, they backed out and sold the boat for $5,000 more than us.

Now present time. We had a 58DB under a hard contract. A 2009 with 159 hours (represented to us 5 times in writing and numerous time verbally include to another member of this forum who checked the vessel out for me.

Great deal right?? We hired surveyors (engine & hull) 4 days before close. Flew to Florida and drove over to Bahia mar last Friday for surveys. The vessel was to close last Tuesday.

Surveyors had been working for two hours when we showed up with the broker. Engines were running, a captain was untying the vessel. We begin to look around and headed up to the bridge and immediately look at the engine computers showing 530 HOURS!!!

Even after sinking $4,875.00, we have to back out of the deal.

I now cannot trust any of them.

We demanded they cover our expenses... told us to pound sand.

Of course we are filing a complaint with the Florida Licensing Board, but still not enough satisfaction.

I would be curious what you guys think.

Ken

 

[Ka1oxd]

That is what litigation is all about. Contract was broken and remediation for broken contract could be dealt with. One suggestion, make sure in the next contract it is spelled out. Under the Uniform Commercial Code, you should be able to sue the broker. I am not an attorney, but deal with issue around regulatory, legal, and contractual compliance.

 

[Jackie J V]

That is brutal and I can see the obvious basis of frustration. Up here, I think I'd be mad enough to take him to court for fraudulent misrepresentation, however if you had to get lawyers involved, you know it will end up costing more.

I had a good experience with a broker in MI when I bought my boat. I think he represented the boat well, was honest in his dealings and even went out on a limb to deliver the boat (with his wife as first mate) in good faith for issues yet to be resolved in a complicated cross border deal.

Not sure that I'm smart enough to pick out the good ones, just got lucky I guess.

Good luck and keep up the good fight....the 58 will be worth it.

Paul

 

[Billfletcher]

Ken, I completely understand your frustration based on your story. however, I recently bought a 2003, 360 with no representation. The broker has been great and has treated me very fairly. I once purchased a home years ago and had a horrible broker experience and like you considered legal action. I guess it's just luck of the draw each time.

 

[missnmountains]

I understand the frustration, and I know you were told it had 150 hours or so...but, 530 hours is nothing for diesels. If you like the boat, you'll lose out more by walking away than if you continue with the sale. (this assumes it checks out during survey)

You might not be aware, but the 500 hour service not completed on the vessel as required by MAN is $30,000.00.

Also If they lied about the hours, what else? If you expect 159 hours and get 530 hour boat, that is like buying a used car said to have 10,000 miles when it has 50,000 miles.

As far as I am concerned; huge difference.

All of these boats "normally" have 100 to 120 hours per year. This vessel we found out from the captain was running up and down the east coast. It was on its third trip.

The hours disclosed are the issue versus the actual hours.

Bottom line... We were lied to. I suspect the broker thought he could spin it. But seriously a 400 hour difference, please?

Ken

 

[Turtlesboat]

here's a question... why is the 500 maint $30k?

 

[merlin]

I go into a deal figuring that I don't know all the answers. If I catch the seller in one lie, I figure there are five more lies that I didn't catch and so I walk away.

 

[Carver370]

Are you dealing with a broker or a dealer who is taking your boat on trade?

 

[AmericasBoaters]

Ken:

Hate to hear about your experience.

As a reformed broker - I left the industry after the 2001 tech bubble crash - I can tell You I also had deals that fell apart at the closing. The one that sticks out most involved a 420 aft cabin. The sellers had ordered a 480 DB, and found out their delivery had been delayed for two weeks.

So, the buyer shows for the closing on the 420, ready to execute final paperwork, and hand over the balance...and the seller calls. "I've got plans for the holiday weekend, and the new boat's not ready. I can't close. We're gonna use the boat (the 420 we were scheduled to close that day) this weekend". Thank goodness the buyers were more understanding than they should've been. We actually found them a better boat (cherry vitracore interior, whereas the original boat had the non-wood finish), and had it closed within 14 days, but the entire thing made for lots of heartburn.

This may be a dumb question, but do you have a relationship with a local broker? It will take a lot of the responsibility off of your plate, and transfer it to your local broker. It will not cost you anything additional, plus (assuming the he is smart) the selling broker should recognize the big picture ramifications of screwing a referral source (your broker).

When times were better, the slugs of the industry might have been able to operate like your guy did, and they might have been willing to ignore offers through outside brokers (and the commission splits that come with them)...but times aren't that good.

I hope that your experience wasn't typical of the industry's current state. Regardless a local agent to represent your interests might go a long way.

 

[osd9]

It sucks when you are lied to...period. 159hrs vs 530hrs isn't necessarily that bad. If you still love the boat, and the rest of the boat checked out, you may want to use it as a bargaining chip to further lower the price. In this case, you may be able to negotiate a lower price due to extra hours AND the 500 hr $30K service.

The motors, and systems, can surely handled the extra 350hrs.

Again, to me, If the boat checks out otherwise, I'd try and negotiate the price to reflect the extra hrs and service.

 

[fwebster]

The MAN service covers just about everything you can do to a diesel engine......about as thorough as you would expect a Mercedes Benz product to be. Injectors removed & tested, all coolers -heat exchanger, aftercooler, oil coolers, fuel,- removed, checked and cleaned, oil &filters, fuel; filters, sea water pumps, and a bunch of other stuff.....well more than a week's work.

The initial service usually costs about $20K, not $30 and it can frequently be done for more like $15K if you have an understanding MAN tech and you give him access to the boat in a marina that isn't picky about who works on their property and you do not pressure him to finish by Friday.

 

[Presentation]

.......The initial service usually costs about $20K,.......

Um, WOW!
……..WOW……
……………ummmmm…..WOW!!

I could repower for less than that.



Do they give you macadamia nut cookies as you wait for the work to be completed like at a Mercedes dealer?

 

[missnmountains]

Are you dealing with a broker or a dealer who is taking your boat on trade?

A broker out of Cape Coral.

 

[fwebster]

It is actually a post manufacturing check up on the engines after they have run in for a while, albeit a very thorough one. Caterpillar has an initial check/reset/adjustment at 250 hours, but its cost is about $1500. I have wondered why Cummins and other manufacturers don't require something similar

 

[missnmountains]

It sucks when you are lied to...period. 159hrs vs 530hrs isn't necessarily that bad. If you still love the boat, and the rest of the boat checked out, you may want to use it as a bargaining chip to further lower the price. In this case, you may be able to negotiate a lower price due to extra hours AND the 500 hr $30K service.

The motors, and systems, can surely handled the extra 350hrs.

Again, to me, If the boat checks out otherwise, I'd try and negotiate the price to reflect the extra hrs and service.

We were never in the market for a 530 hour boat. I would never had considered it originally.

Ken

 

[missnmountains]

Just to add insult to injury, I got an email from them asking if I would release the surveys to another buyer.

Yea right!!

I just want to be clear, we understand these motors will last for thousands of hours. I believe right or wrong that there is 530 hours on the entire vessel not just the motors.

We run our 48 100 to 120 hours per year. The 400 hour difference is almost 4 years of service for us.

Ken

 

[katricol]

You stated that the boat was run for long distances up and down the coast. I think it's very possible the boat could be in better shape and have less "real" use than a boat where a dozen people climb aboard every weekend and don't go as far (therefore fewer hours)

 

[Presentation]

It is actually a post manufacturing check up on the engines after they have run in for a while, albeit a very thorough one. Caterpillar has an initial check/reset/adjustment at 250 hours, but its cost is about $1500. I have wondered why Cummins and other manufacturers don't require something similar

Frank,

The $1,500 guy must be cutting corners compared to the $15,000 guy.

Bet that guy does not give you macadamia nut cookies, probably just saltines.

 

[fwebster]

Nope......just completely different engine, engine control systems, cooling system and induction systems.....much like the difference between a tune up on a carbureted 4 cylinder compared to a Lamborgini.

 

[CV-23]

I would also worry about what other details he has wrong....hours are hours of wear and tear. The diesels arn't the only moving parts that have additional hours on them. Frustrating I'm sure. When we looked at our boat, I had a check to cover 70% of the deal and cash to complete it. If the boat was not as described, I was keeping some of the cash to make repairs or neglected maintenance.....or not do the deal at all. Let the buyer beware but that takes all the fun out of shopping, Mike.