Buyig A Bigger Boat - Need Some Opinions

[jlamb]

Current boat is a 2001 Sundancer 290 with twin 5 liter bravo 3's. All the other good stuff like generator, heat and air, vacu-flush head, hot water, etc, etc. Great weekend boat.

I want to move up to something in the 45 foot range that would qualify as a liveaboard. Not looking for a permanent residence, just a comfortable and reliable boat for extended cruising.

I have my own list of things I like and dislike based on my experience with my current boat. For example, I am tired of I/O drives. So much maintenance because so much is underwater - bellows, transmission, limit switches, up/down indicators, etc. I keep it in saltwater which of course compounds things.

What I would like to know more about is Gas VS Diesel on a larger boat. Inboard drive systems - how reliable and how much maintenance?

What are other key things I should know when shopping for a larger cruiser?

Thanks in advance for sharing your experiences with me.

Jimmy

 

[NotHerDecision]

I would think anything in the 40ft plus range should have diesels. Your choice of drives will be pods, stern drive, or v drive. V drive and stern drive have been around quite a while at this point and each have their benefits. Of course the new pod systems are amazing but I wouldn't go as far to say they are proven just yet. If you truly want to limit maintenance you need a boat under warranty. I wouldn't hesistate to buy a diesel boat as you will have more torque at lower rpm and get better mileage.

As far as other things... the most important is what she likes... number 2 is what she likes... number 3 is what layout you want and style. I think lots of people buy a boat before they think about how they will use it. Do you want the fly bridge or do you want tons of sleeping space or do you want a dancer with a huge outdoor cockpit? All of these things matter but I think are overlooked. 2 things I overlooked, fuel tank capacity and water capacity.


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[bahamabreisus]

I am here in Hampstead, PM me, I would love to discuss the options available to you. Did you move your boat from Sailfish/ Scoots Hill

 

[Air O'Nautical]

1000's of possible boats fit that bill.

In the 45 foot range suitable for living aboard means you'll be looking at diesel engines.
45 is too big and heavy for a gas engine except, in the case of a few boats that are used on small inland lakes.
Gas boats have much less range..
Gasoline engines require more maintance but, if neglected a diesel engine will cost significantly more $$$$ to fix and/or replace.
Maint. logs or some proof of engine history of the diesel engines should be important.
The Inboard power train is much simpler and more robust than an I/O..not too much to go wrong.

If buying used..
A professional hull and seperate engine survey can save you from buying a problem boat.
Having said that, I'd recommend you or someone you trust, to do another very though inspection of any vessel before buying because, I've witnessed some surprising things missed on otherwise respectable surveys.

I'm most interested that your new boat wasn't ever a submarine for a short time.
(it's not always easy to tell)!

 

[northern]

Look at aft cabin boats for room.
Big boats go slow compared to what you have. If you are retired big and slow is good.
Gas boats burns more fuel but maintenance is simple if you do things yourself. If you get a mechanic it probably does not matter.
Fuel cost only matter if you go long distances. If we had diesel boat we probably would burn half the fuel if both boat had twins. If what we have compared to twins had one engine it would burn 1/3 of what we do. Diesel boats are easier to heat as you can get a diesel heating system. With gas you need to run the generator to get heat or put in another fuel system to heat.
What we have works for us and it is the last boat we will probably own. But if we were to get another boat it would be bigger with a single diesel and small backup get home engine.

 

[mquiet]

If you are still in NC, I would reach out to bahamabresus. I know him well and he will just be honest and tell you everything you need to know. I jumped from 34 to a 48 and bahamabreisus was my broker and friend. Plus you could come by the marina and look at all these boats that you are considering.


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[Stee6043]

45 is a LOT of boat.

The only thing I can offer is a conversation I had two weeks ago while sipping a beer with several dock neighbors.

I was lamenting the half-day I spent changing the oil on my three engines (2 mains, generator). The guys I was sharing this with all have 40 foot +/- bridge boats. My mains take 7 quarts each. Each of them were in the 7 gallons each ballpark.

The cost for a DIYer to maintain those diesels is easily 5X my tiny gassers.

Obviously you have the budget if you're considering a 45' boat. But be ready...it's not just a longer slip!

 

[ttmott]

45 is a LOT of boat.

The only thing I can offer is a conversation I had two weeks ago while sipping a beer with several dock neighbors.

I was lamenting the half-day I spent changing the oil on my three engines (2 mains, generator). The guys I was sharing this with all have 40 foot +/- bridge boats. My mains take 7 quarts each. Each of them were in the 7 gallons each ballpark.

The cost for a DIYer to maintain those diesels is easily 5X my tiny gassers.

Obviously you have the budget if you're considering a 45' boat. But be ready...it's not just a longer slip!

I don't think I completely agree- aside from the fact that the cost to size ratio isn't linear (I think we all know that) diesels are not necessarily more costly to maintain and operate for their given power ratings. Consider Merc 8.1's vs Cummins of similar power ratings (albeit diesel torque ratings can't be compared) the cost lifecycle for the Cummins is a better choice. It comes down to the up front cost premium for diesel vs the recurring higher cost overall for the gasoline. Now with all that said my 400 DA which is 44 overall gets right around 1 MPG which is about 26 GPH at cruise with diesel. The same boat with the BB Merc's is about 20 percent more fuel for gasoline. And, at least at our Marina, gasoline is a good buck and a half more than diesel per gallon. Then there are those intangibles like higher insurance for gasoline and the intrinsic safety of diesel as a fuel....

 

[dpmulvey]

Not enough information.

Where are you going to boat?
The needs at Lake Norman differ from Wrightsville.

What do you want to do?
Fishing vs. Cruising vs. ICW vs. Dock Queen.... All can be done on any boat. You'll enjoy different things more on one than another.

How old are you?
Young and ambulatory or older and ambulatory....steps aren't an issue. Old and feeling it, steps will become your enemy and you will start to hate the boat.

 

[swaterhouse]

And by your post its sounds like your not all that keen on maintenance. A 40-45 will easily have double the number of systems you current boat has. That you need to consider as well.

As for Gas vs Diesel, I prefer Diesel mostly because of the power and "safety" of not having explosive gas or CO. Diesel maintenance costs can be high. If you sub out all your maintenance on a Cummins QSC as an example you would be looking at around $3,000 every other year for aftercooler cleaning plus at least another $3,000 every 5 years for the heat exchanger cleaning and cooloant flush/replace. The in between years is "just" oil and filters, thats 10 gallons of oil (about $160) and $100 in filters, plus the labor.

 

[Stee6043]

I don't think I completely agree- aside from the fact that the cost to size ratio isn't linear (I think we all know that) diesels are not necessarily more costly to maintain and operate for their given power ratings. Consider Merc 8.1's vs Cummins of similar power ratings (albeit diesel torque ratings can't be compared) the cost lifecycle for the Cummins is a better choice. It comes down to the up front cost premium for diesel vs the recurring higher cost overall for the gasoline. Now with all that said my 400 DA which is 44 overall gets right around 1 MPG which is about 26 GPH at cruise with diesel. The same boat with the BB Merc's is about 20 percent more fuel for gasoline. And, at least at our Marina, gasoline is a good buck and a half more than diesel per gallon. Then there are those intangibles like higher insurance for gasoline and the intrinsic safety of diesel as a fuel....

Perhaps you confused my words "maintain" and "diesels" with other things having nothing to do with "cost to maintain those diesels". ha.

There are plenty of threads on gas vs diesel in terms of cost of ownership and efficiency and all of those things. That's not at all what I was talking about. When the time comes to change the oil (my exact example) guys in this size range with diesels appear to be spending right around 5X what I spend to maintain my little gassers.

That's all I was saying.

 

[FootballFan]

If you are still in NC, I would reach out to bahamabresus. I know him well and he will just be honest and tell you everything you need to know. I jumped from 34 to a 48 and bahamabreisus was my broker and friend. Plus you could come by the marina and look at all these boats that you are considering.


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I would second checking in with bahamabreisus. Knows the market and a good guy.

Additionally - some other thoughts. I am in the midst of upgrading. Sold a 50ish ft boat a few months ago. We are shopping for a larger boat.

Our focus has been on building a requirements list. What is important to us.

For example a washer/dryer is non negotiable.
Type of engine room access.
Bridge boat.
Full Beam Master.
How we will carry a dinghy.

The list is long - probably 40+ items on it. Lot's of discussions between the Admiral and I. What are the "must haves" and the "nice to haves" in the next boat.

Some items are mechanical in nature (preferred power, power options that would eliminate a boat), some are things like storage, amount of Freezer space.

Our list isn't important - since it for us. The important list is what you want in a boat. Get those requirements down in a spreadsheet that you can work from.

We have looked at a few boats - but our focus now is on the FLIB. We are starting to look at specific models and evaluating against our list of requirements.

Mark

 

[Gimme Time]

I have been operating GT since 2007 when we bought he. We went from a 21' Supra Ski boat on our lake to 2001 420AC with twin Kitty Cats. We typically put about 75 hours on the engines a year cruising around the Chesapeake Bay.

We left May 28th last year and got home May of this year from a little ole trip we took called The Great Loop of 5,900km. I consider myself pretty particular and try to take care of GT per the manufactures recommendations and would say the condition of GT is above average. I've replaced everything on GT BUT the Kitty Cats, Westerbeke generator and the stove top burners. I did add Nuteak put Nuteak on her five summers ago and it's the best upgrade I've done to the boat in my opinion.

So the big question is, what does she cost to maintain & take care of her. My excell spread sheet says, 26 to 31K per year which is everything involved with ownership excluding and boat payments. That does not included any food or drink as that is not a boating expense. Can you do it for less, probably not as I and a friend work with each other for all the typical engine maintenance. I have Cat do the manufacture's recommend specific servicing such as lashing the valves, removing & reinstalling the heat exchangers, fuel coolers, transmission coolers after coolers and simuler specific.

I'm anal about tracking my cost as I luv the boat, boating and way of life. I can also say the Great Loop is a trip of a lifetime IMHO and we spent 335 days on board and the cost per day excluding the maintenance as I track it separately was $131.13 per day. Pretty dam cheap IMHO for two comfortable state rooms with their heads on the water every day. Rent a condo and travel 5,900km and see how much that would cost compared to the journey of a life time we took. Not priceless but the best 11 months my wife, family & friends could spend for fact in my opinion.

You our can look us up next winter in Key West where we spent last winter and commiserate with us if ya bring your boat!

Not trying to scare anyone just state what I believe to be a real world owner ship numbers.

See ya own the water!

AJ

 

[ttmott]

Perhaps you confused my words "maintain" and "diesels" with other things having nothing to do with "cost to maintain those diesels". ha.

There are plenty of threads on gas vs diesel in terms of cost of ownership and efficiency and all of those things. That's not at all what I was talking about. When the time comes to change the oil (my exact example) guys in this size range with diesels appear to be spending right around 5X what I spend to maintain my little gassers.

That's all I was saying.

OK - maybe so. I was alluding for jlamb (the OP) that there can be no rational comparison for "cost" reasons other than a non-linear more $$ between your power train and one required for a much larger boat. As you state, there are many other sources that reveal diesel is no doubt a better choice for the size of boat they are looking for, which is exactly what I was trying to illustrate as a response to jlamb's question (diesel or gas).

Now, as to the question of "liveaboard" - For Sea Ray, the Sundancer line may not give you that liveaboard quality; maybe better to look at the Sedan Bridges and Motor Yachts. I have tumbled to the same desire for my frequent trips to the Bahamas and have been looking at 50 to 58 sedan bridges the last six months which, in my opinion answers the liveaboard atmosphere. As for the question on drive train; I'm completely in the "old school" with straight or V drives specifically for cost of owning reasons. I really don't need the level of integration to "joystick" a boat sideways to berth that Pods would give an owner.

 

[Gofirstclass]

You can offset a lot of the maintenance cost if you do some/most of it yourself. For example, I do my own oil changes. Each engine takes 14 gallons and the genset 4 if I recall correctly. I buy the oil at Costco (Delo400 15W40) when they have it on sale. Yeah, it ain't cheap to change the oil but when I first sent samples in to be analyzed the company said that due to the good condition of the Cats (3406C) I should only change the oil about every 400 hours. That's doable. Filters I buy online and they're about $100 for two oil filters and two fuel filters.

It takes me about 3 hours to change the oil in the engines and genset, but it's a labor of live and I enjoy messing around on the boat. I also change my impellers (buy them online, they're cheaper) on the engines and genset.

When we looked at boats before buying this one we decided an aft cabin boat, while it offers a lot more space would not work for us because it would be difficult to go through the locks. Access to the side walkways is non-existent so it's very difficult to hang enough fenders (we use 6).

 

[northshore]

....That does not included any food or drink as that is not a boating expense.

John, I'm really worried about you! :grin:


One thing John mentioned is the Excel spreadsheet. I use one as well. Be disciplined and keep everything in there. Expenses, to do lists, fluids and capacities.....

If you want to knock some of the cost out of being a boat owner, my advice is learn how to do your own basic maintenance.
Big gains to be had there.

Good luck,

-Mike

 

[Gimme Time]

On a follow up it should be noted that we do GT maintenance ourself other that Cat required/preferred scope of work. If you can adjust your own valves your above typical maintenance IMHO. As for Aft Cabins doing locks, we've been through in excess of 140 of them and the side walk access on GT is a piece of cake as the Admiral could easily attest to.

We keep GT in a covered slip and love the boat. Cost are cost and I've seen many people fail to maintain the boat and it shows through when ready to see!

 

[Jeepers]

First check out dockage costs.

 

[northern]

All interesting but we have no real feel for what you can afford to purchase or to maintain.
How much do you want to spend on the purchase
How much can you afford each year for fuel, maintenance, dock space, storage and entertaining
And finally in 10 or 15 years can you afford to admit the boat has depreciated to near nothing when you want to sell it.