Battery charge longevity and Emergency start switch questions

[Pilot]

Longevity of Battery charge, emergency start question
I have a 2008 350 Sundancer with twin 8.1 engines, dual battery sets (4 total) and a generator.

It seems that when we go out for an overnight and use DC power our batteries on the starboard side go dead pretty quickly. This happeed twice. This is prior to running the generator which we don't want to run immediatley as its loud and should be unecessary in the short run, until we decide to go to sleep or below to watch TV etc,.Case in point, recently we went out, turned off everything but the stereo and anchor light and cabin light switch. Occassionally would flush the head and run water for a minute. 3 hours later the stereo is dying and we then can't start the generator or even the starboard engine as the batteries on that bank are too dead. We showed 8-8.4 volts on the starboard battery bank from our smartcraft guages. However we can still start the port engine as that is isloated from the starboard side, and once started, that side was charging fine at 13.5-14. volts.

Now, another issue, when we try to use the emergency start button to get the starboad started, it doesn't seem to do anything. We press and hold the emergency switch for 30-40 seconds, then while holding it, hit the starboard engine start button. Nothing but cellunoid clicking and flashing dashboard blue lights. Eventually, lost all guages except smartcraft, we even lost the anchor light and bilge blower as the starboard battery bank was dead as a doornail. This seems like a poor design???!!

Why and what is going on here? I would think that 3 hours of running just a couple light load things on the battery set without running the generator would be fine. Also, does the emergency start switch really work ever? I mean you obviously never use it until you need it, but damnit, when you need it and it doesn't work, well, that's really disapointing.

One bright side is that I sure have learned to take lots of extra gear with me, many flashlights, extra radio, extra ice, battery radio etc as I just don't trust my boat will be dependable,,, and thats a shame because it's brand new!

Any suggestions are sure appreciated. Thanks all.

 

[wkearney99]

Be aware that the fridge is a huge drain on the battery, followed by the radio/amp and the charplotter and radar. It's often a good idea to turn the fridge off and avoid opening it too often. Some fridges have an off switch, but others require using the thermostat. Also, keeping it full will help keep it cooler longer. I keep a couple of those blue plastic ice blocks on board for just that reason. As we use up the beer and food I put the blocks into the fridge. Doing this when running, on shore power or genset will get them chilled enough to keep the box cooler when the power's off. For guests we keep a small cooler onboard for drinks to avoid any regular opening of the fridge.

It sounds like something's not wired right with your batteries. Should be something the dealer ought to address for a new boat like that.

 

[Pilot]

Thanks for the response. Gotya on the fridge also, I turned them off when out there and run on the cooler w/ice for just that reason. Others have said maybe the banks weak from being completely drained once/twice before this and the batteries can't sustain very long, maybe replacing them is best.

I've notice a couple similar threads w/ folks having battery issues similar.

Cheers

 

[wkearney99]

I don't know the specifics of how the 350 is supposed to be wired up to the batteries. It certainly sounds like something's not right since you can't use the emergency start when the port engine can be started. I'd wonder whether or not someone connected the batteries improperly, perhaps after bringing it out of winter storage? But this is just a generic shot in the dark, as I don't specifically know how the 350 handles this.

There's a number of different devices involved in the charging and starting setup. It's all pretty simple stuff but it depends on all the pieces working and being connected properly. The emergency start not working raises a red flag to me. If things aren't wired right then who knows what's gone wrong. Then there's the risk of batteries getting cooked due to overcharging. Could be an issue with the charger or could be the batteries themselves. Letting them get drained too far does raise the risk of damaging them.

It really takes a step-by-step checking of the complete setup. Don't know if anyone here with a 350 can chime in. Thus my suggestion to get the dealer to look at it.

 

[Jersey Mike]

Individually charge and test batteries...If they test good you will need to check for a parasitic draw. The loads you described will not discharge 2 fully charged healthy batteries in 3 hours. My bet would be a bad battery or batteries that are not charging properly either from the engine or converter. Keep in mind that year 1 is shakedown year of new boat ownership, year 2 is usually golden, year 3 things start to wear out/break!

 

[hack4alivin]

I had a similar problem with my 06 320. The batteries you have are “starting” batteries and with a load on them, such as your refrigerator (either in the cabin or the one in the cockpit) they are not going to last all night. You said you “turned off everything”; I thought I was doing the same thing by turning off my DC breakers in the cabin. It turns out the refrigerator in the cockpit was still on, that needs to be turned off DC power from its own temperature switch. That is what was draining my batteries.

In my case the port side batteries would drain, and I could not start the port engine or the generator. I would start the starboard engine, press and hold the emergency start button and at the same time press the start button for the port engine. It would fire right up. Why are you holding the emergency start button for 30 to 40 seconds?

I got around my problem by replacing my port side batteries (both of them) with Group 31 AGM batteries from Sears. (Thanks Gary!) They are not cheap, but have they been worth it for me. I have been out with everything on, including both refrigerators for hours without a problem. The AGM’s are both deep cycle and deliver a lot of CCA’s. In fact mine are 1100 CCA compared to the original batteries that were 700.

There are a number of threads here on batteries and using them while on the hook.

 

[bigpursuit]

The probable cause is one of the batteries in the bank is weak and it is drawing down the good battery. Take a volt meter and figure out wich one is bad. You must then replace both batteries since a bank should be completely replaced at the same time.

In a bank of batteries the overall voltage is caluculated by what each indivuidual battery puts out. If the battery is weak it will bring down the overall bank and also suck the life out of the good batteries in the bank. in this case you have more voltage if you eliminate the bad battery and only use one.

 

[J Levine]

I would agree that somthing is not working right. My boat has 4 batteries... one dedicated starting battery for the generator, one dedicated starting battery for the port engine and two deep cycle batteries for the starboard motor and the house load. I have two fridges, one in the cockpit and one in the galley. When I anchor out overnight I generally run the generator for a while just before we go to bed to recharge the batteries with the converter and give to the fridges a shot of AC current before they run all night on DC. In the morning the fridges are still running and I can usually get the starboard motor started without using the emergency start switch. I always start the generator first and let if run for a while to power the converter. I then start the port side and get it running before starting the starboard side. My deep cycles are nearing the end of their lives and this season I have had to use the emergency start system to kick over the motor a few times, but when the batteries were fresh I never did this. This fall I will dispose of the deep cycles and plan on putting in new batteries in the spring. For the life of me I dont understand the set up on some of these Sea Rays where the generator does not have a dedicated battery... defeats the ability to use the generator to recharge the main engine starting batteries if needed.

 

[wkearney99]

For the life of me I dont understand the set up on some of these Sea Rays where the generator does not have a dedicated battery... defeats the ability to use the generator to recharge the main engine starting batteries if needed.

While having a genset available to charge the batteries is convenient, that's also a job the main engines can do once they're started. I suppose there's all sorts of scenarios that could be argued about what is or isn't 'better'. But it seems sort of like a waste of weight and battery capacity to have one sitting there for the genset alone. It would seem more useful to have the emergency switch available to handle it (and be smart about dealing with a dead bank). That would leave more capacity available to the various accessories on the ships system circuits. These are recreational boats so it would seem appropriate to support the on-going operation of those systems.

 

[Stray Cat]

We showed 8-8.4 volts on the starboard battery bank from our smartcraft guages.

Once your batteries get to this level of discharge, they are pretty much toast for pulling an electrical load for any length of time. Often they will charge up to show 12.5 or maybe 13 volts while they are on the charger....but put them on a load with no charger and they go kaput pretty quick.

I had your scenario over the long July 4th weekend. I was fortunate the generator was on a seperate circut than the house batteries and port engine. Atleast on my Dancer, the house and port engine are wired with two batteries, while the gen and stbd engine are wired with the other two. The E start worked like a champ the first time I drained the port & house bats to < 9 volts.

As mentioned, best have them all load tested so you know what you have. I changed all 4 of mine this weekend. I chose to go with (4) Interstate group 27M deep cycle / cranking batteries. Also, my S/R manual recommends that all 4 batteries be the same group and rating.....my original dealer installed batteries were (2) deep cycles and (2) crank batteries ie: they were different CCA's and group sizes...but they worked for 3-1/2 yrs that way.

BTW - I ran my two fridges, stereo, VHF, flushed, and ran water for over 5 hrs on my new batteries, and when I went to leave the anchorage, I still had 12.5 volts on the DC panel voltmeter and the port engine cranked up without issue.

 

[Hampton]

Sounds like a short somewhere due to the fact that the emergency switch won't allow the other bank to start it up even after starting the other engine. One other thing to try: Try bumping up the good engine to about 1200 RPM before trying to crank the one from the dead bank.

I have 4 Optima AGM Blue Top Batteries. They are deep cycle batteries so they don't get damaged so badly when drawn way down. They are two years old. We run them all day long with 2 'fridges in searing heat, 1 stereo with 2 - 3 amps running, and various water/head operations. We start the genny in the late afternoon for a couple of hours, and then either run it all night or for a couple of hours in the morning. No issues.

 

[Pilot]

Thanks Bill! I think I'll do just that and get them at Sears. I still worry about the Emergency start switch being wired correctly, but, we're @ 1 hours drive from the dealer and if they come and it's not broken and a warranty issue, well, we're looking at @ $300 for a friendly visit from Clarks.

I did Sears for batteries on the laxst boat and they were very good.

 

[wkearney99]

Well, for a new boat it'd be pretty hard for it NOT to be a warranty issue. That is unless someone (not the dealer) took the batteries out of the boat last winter and didn't reinstall them correctly. Who did it? And if they did it wrong then that has got to be corrected before you install any new batteries, lest those be ruined too.

 

[RollerCoastr]

Bill, IMO, on any boat big enough for a generator, space and weight should be allocated for a dedicated genny battery.

The alternators on the mains can and will charge their own batteries, but you shouldn't expect them to charge the whole bank. Neither should a boater with a working generator expect to have to start several engines after a night on the hook just to charge batts.

Initially, the setup on my boat didn't make sense to me. Two parallel for stbd starting and house, one dedicated to genny and two more parallel for port. The port setup seemed like a waste to me, until I realized that "house" isn't all-encompassing: CO alarms, bilge pumps and the hatch lift actuator, all things you never want to be without, pull from the port bank.

It's exactly the way I would have designed it.

Pilot, if your boat IS configured the way SeaRay intended, then I would recommend changing, even if it's at your own expense.

 

[wkearney99]

If the engines are equipped with appropriate alternators they most certainly should be able to be called upon to recharge ALL batteries on board. By what justification shouldn't they? To have to depend upon the genset seems like a bad idea. To be able to use it, sure, if an engine's (any of them) running it ought to be able to spare some of that energy to recharge the batteries. I've no idea where you get the idea that it's an either or proposition, that certainly wouldn't make sense. You're arguing against a point nobody's making.

As for rejiggering his whole battery setup, how about seeing the current problem solved first?

 

[RollerCoastr]

Wait - I never said either-or. Mains should, and do, charge their batteries.

My point was that a dedicated generator battery makes sense. Running down the genny battery doesn't. The generator is the most logical way to recharge the house batteries and supply AC to the house after a prolonged DC usage.

In a typical anchoring scenario, boaters awake to burdened house batteries and have a desire to use the stove, make coffee etc. So they start the genny, load it with AC, enjoy some coffee and the Today Show while the batteries charge. If the generator battery was sacrificed, you'd have to start a main and have it configured to charge other batteries, then perhaps rev it for a while to recover the genny battery, THEN start the genny to get AC power.

If I had a boat wired like that, I'd re-do it.

 

[fc3]

All of the MerCruiser engine installation guides that i've seen for EFI engines recommend that each engine have a dedicated battery bank such that no engine shares a battery bank with any other engine. Has that changed?

Best regards,
Frank

 

[hack4alivin]

As for rejiggering his whole battery setup, how about seeing the current problem solved first?

Good idea, how is your Sea Ray wired Bill? I can tell you on my 06 320 there are four batteries, only four…. Two Banks with each pair wired in parallel. One bank is for the port engine, and all the house accessories. The other pair is for the starboard engine and all the vital helm electronics. The port side is also used to start the generator, there is no 5th battery dedicated for the generator. All the batteries that were supplied by the manufacture where of the “starting type”.

Last season I did not realize the cockpit refrigerator was running from the house batteries while on the hook, I thought it was turned off by the breaker in the cabin. As it turned out it was not, and I ran my port side batteries down several times. When this happened I could not start my port engine or my generator, so I used the emergency switch with the starboard engine running, fired up the port engine, then with the port engine running I could start the generator. At that point I could shut down both engines and let the generator run, and use the battery charger to charge up. Of course after running down the port side batteries several times the charge on them would not last very long because these are starter batteries.

So as I said in an earlier post, switching to AGM type batteries solved my problem. Using “Deep Cycle” batteries which can run the house accessories for an extended time, and still provide the required cold cranking amps for the engines was the trick.

I am betting since the OP has a new Sea Ray 350, his battery arrangement is similar and the boat came equipped with “Starter” type batteries. They are just not going to run your house accessories while you are out all night…. Switch to AGM’s

 

[wkearney99]

If the generator battery was sacrificed, you'd have to start a main and have it configured to charge other batteries, then perhaps rev it for a while to recover the genny battery, THEN start the genny to get AC power.

Which assumes the genset is connected to a battery that would be drained. I don't think most connect it in that manner. It'd be far more likely to have it connected to one of the engine start batteries, likely not one shared with ships systems accessories.

Of course there's always ways for things to fail, even with dedicated batteries. And in the case of the original question it's likely something besides the batteries themselves is involved with the problem.

Whether or not there's a dedicated genset battery is pretty much an unrelated issue. You make a interesting case for it, just not one that I agree with it.

 

[Stray Cat]

All of the MerCruiser engine installation guides that i've seen for EFI engines recommend that each engine have a dedicated battery bank such that no engine shares a battery bank with any other engine. Has that changed?

Best regards,
Frank

Indeed they have.....Mine is similar to Hack's with exception my generator cranks from the two batteries in parallel for the stbd engine....which is good because if you drain the port and house batteries (port batteries in paralell) you can still crank the genny and the E Start will work to crank the port if needed.

As a bonus, their DC wiring schematic matches what is actually on my boat!