Another Winterizing Question

[SeaRay]

I was just reading the thread below and now I have a couple of questions...


http://clubsearay.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35150

Question 1) What is the disadvantage of just running the pink AF through the engine with muffs? I have been using a 5 gallon bucket with a hose fitting installed through a hole I drilled in the bucket then just filling the bucket with AF until I get a good flow of pink out of the exhaust. It usually takes 4 gallons or so but I will run 5 through it. Seems like the preferred method is running it down hoses at the T-Stat???

Question 2) I was taught to drain the AF out by pulling all the blue drain plugs after flushing with AF. Am I better off to leave the AF in there for corrosion protection? If so, do I drain in the spring or just let it run out the first time we put the boat in?

I know there are a million and a half ways to do this...but I just want to learn what is best.

Thanks!!

 

[Banagy]

To be on the safe side I use the -100 and leave it in the engine and out drive.

 

[Lazy Daze]

1) I am not convinced that using the "bucket" method equates to getting a full concentration of pink everywhere. Draining the block, and then back filling through the t-stat housing hoses does.

2) The inside of your engine will scale/rust much faster without the pink inside it (especially the kind with corrosion inhibitors). If it wasn't for the freezing aspect, you'd be better off leaving the water in it than leaving it empty.

Going through the t-stat hoses is really very, very simple. While I've never used the bucket method, I can't envision it actually saving any time, either. Or, if it does, it can't be more than a couple of minutes.

 

[SeaRay]

Thanks for the replies...

My T-stat assembly has four hoses going to it. Would I need to disconnect and fill all four hoses?

This might be a really stupid question......But, it sounds like you do all this with the engine not running....How does the AF get past the water pump impeller (with a Bravo 3) if the engine isn't running when you add the AF?

Thanks

 

[Alex F]

Searay,

As you said, there're plenty of different ways of doing it, but I've used most common (this is when I had my 240DA), which is:

1. Run the engine with attached hose supplying city water to warm up the engine to normal operating temp (160, 170 or whatever it is for your engine). This allows t-stat to open. Also, while warming up the engine this allows the StaBil solution to work itself through the fuel system. Since I had EFI I didn't fug it.

2. When the norm temp is reached I shut the engine, drain the water by taking the bottom blue plug out.

3. As soon as most of the water is out put the plug back in, switch to the bucket with pink and run your engine until the pink goes out of the exhaust.

4. Shut your engine and you're done with the pink stuff for the engine. Now you can move on to the other items.

 

[SeaRay]

Alex,

That is basically what I do now but I am trying to figure out how pouring the AF down the T-Stats tubes is better.

Not sure how it gets through the impeller if the engine isn't running....

 

[Lazy Daze]

Thanks for the replies...

My T-stat assembly has four hoses going to it. Would I need to disconnect and fill all four hoses?

This might be a really stupid question......But, it sounds like you do all this with the engine not running....How does the AF get past the water pump impeller (with a Bravo 3) if the engine isn't running when you add the AF?

Thanks

Yes, take all four off. The big one goes to the block. Then there are two exhausts - they go to the manifolds. The odd one comes from your sea water pump (impeller) -- your power steering cooler is also inline with that, by the way.

After you drain the engine, bump the engine a few times. That evacuates any water that is on the sea water side of the pump. Then, take the upper hose off the pump - that will drain out any water that may still be left on the engine side of the pump (newer style pumps have drain plugs). Pour a little AF into that "odd" hose at the t-stat housing, just to be sure to flush out any more water. Then you can replace the hose on the pump and fill again from the t-stat housing.

If you've evacuated the water from the pump, there's really no need to have AF on the sea water side of the pump - it just drains out, anyways.

 

[Lazy Daze]

One other note - I don't want it to sound like I'm saying the bucket method is a crappy idea. I prefer the hose method for various reasons, but the bucket method can work. But, I do think that to do it right (and get the same protection as the hose method, including being sure to have full-strength AF in everything), one would use a lot more AF. I use a max of 4 gallons doing it the hose way.

Now, something that I could see being useful is to use the bucket method for the sea water pump (after draining and bumping), then finish with the hose method. If someone really has a hard time accessing the pump's hoses, this would be a good option.

 

[widowmaker]

SeaRay,
So which method are you going to use? I have the same engine and outdrive as you and have used the bucket method the last 2 years. It's a challenge draining and reinstalling the plugs and fogging while still warm with the thermostat open. After seeing the YouTube video it seems pretty straightforward.
Thoughts...

 

[andyr]

Here is how I winterize my '89 Sea Ray with twin Mercruiser 5.7's and Alpha 1 drives. No need to start the engine, have the thermostat open or pull the thermostat.
- Drain the manifolds and risers and leave the drain open. There may be 1, 3 or no drains, just the hose depending on the year.
- Drain the engine block, first one side then the other. Poke with a wire to move the scale to get it started. When the water stops, don't assume it is drained. It may be clogged. Poke again, and again.
- Pull the 6 hoses off the thermostat housing
- Pull the lower hose off where it attaches to the water pump, let a slug of water out, reattach and tighten.
- Close one block drain. Leave other open.
- Pour not toxic antifreeze in the top of the water pump hose until you see pink coming out the drain. You did tighten the lower, right.
- Close that block drain and repeat with the other side and close.
- Pour antifreeze into the water pump hose until it comes out the thermostat housing port where the water pump hose was connected. Hold the hose equal or higher than where it connects. It will take about 2 gal. The thermostat does not have to be open. Here is why: You are pouring into the water pump. Water goes from the pump into the block then out of the block up to the thermostat housing and, if the engine is cold, back to the water pump. So there is no need to remove the thermostat. If you doubt this, look carefully at the Sea Ray thermostat housing flow diagram or just try it. If the thermostat is open antifreeze will come out the exhaust manifold and water pump ports on the housing. Remember - pour into the water pump. People get in trouble when they pour into the exhaust manifold port. That only works if the thermostat is open. If closed, the antifreeze doesn't go into the block. Or, they pour into the riser hose and the balls block the antifreeze.
- Pour antifreeze into the riser hose until you see pink coming out the manifold drain, close manifold drain or reconnect hose if no drain and pour some into the riser and manifold hoses and into the riser and manifold ports on the thermostat housing. Reconnect all hoses.
- Disconnect the sterndrive water intake hose under the engine where it connects to the power steering cooler. Hold low and let a slug of water out. Hold the end of the hose high enough so that it is higher than where the hose connects to the transom. A funnel helps. Pour antifreeze in until pink comes out the outdrive. Doesn't take much. If you are alone, just look for pink on the intake of the drive. If the hose fills up and doesn't drain, turn the engine over just a bump, half a revolution, to move the water pump vane in the sterndrive from blocking its port. You can turn the engine by hand if the battery is out. I've not found it necessary to bump the engine. Reattach the intake hose.
- If your engine has hoses going from the water pump to the hotwater heater, disconnect at the water pump, and hold lower than the heater to drain them.
- Make sure you have reconnected all the hoses correctly and tightened.
That's it. You are done. It really doesn't take long. One person can do it alone. Only takes 3-4 gal. and, you positively know the block is full of antifreeze.

I used to winterize running antifreeze through the muffs. Now the EPA says we can't let non-toxic antifreeze on the ground which means we need to collect the antifreeze coming out of the outdrive when running the engine - a pain. Also, one year an engine overheated using a winterizing kit with a tank on the swim platform.

http://clubsearay.com/forum/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=412175

 

[SeaRay]

Thanks for all the replies.

I still like the bucket method....It seems to me that disconnecting five hoses and trying to pour anti freeze through the water pump hose on my boat wouldn't be fun. Plus using the bucket method with the engine running will put the AF in the engine under pressure, not just gravity fed in. This will help flush out any water that was left in the block, because there will always be some in there - even after draining it.

My method might be different than some because I only live a couple of blocks from our lake. I will go out one last time and cruise around the lake, making sure that I get the engine to operating temperature. Quickly bring the boat home and run the engine again with clean water from our hose to flush out the lake water and bring the engine back to operating temperature.

Then quickly remove all the drain plugs, clean out the holes with a stiff wire then reinstall all the plugs. Run 4-5 jugs of AF through the engine with the muffs and a bucket and call it good.

I also store my boat in an attached garage that stays above freezing even on the most brutal winter days (unless the kids decide to leave the door open!!)

I think the hose method would be great if you didn't want to run the engine but I look forward to that one last day I can take the boat out so I am OK with running it before and while I winterize. I also agree with Lazy Daze comments of doing both. Last year I actually pulled the thermostat off to make sure there was AF in there.


I do have another question though....

I will have water drip for days out of my Bravo 3 drive after pulling it from the lake. This is even after running the trim down and letting it drain while we wipe the boat down. Where is that water coming from?

Would either the bucket method or the hose method make sure that there isn't any water left in the drive?

 

[Alex F]

....I will have water drip for days out of my Bravo 3 drive after pulling it from the lake. This is even after running the trim down and letting it drain while we wipe the boat down. Where is that water coming from?

Would either the bucket method or the hose method make sure that there isn't any water left in the drive?

IMO, if you run AF using bucket with the muffs thru the outdrive, after you're done the only thing that would be dripping is the AF.

This is another reason why I like to run AF anywhere water runs thru. This way I'm comfortable that any unknown water puckets are filled with AF and will be safe over the winter. The same goes for bildge pumps, washdowns, show pumps, etc....etc.

 

[SeaRay]

That is my thought too. I am not sure if just running AF through the hoses will flush everything out of the drive unit.

I would rather have it sucked through the drive and pressurized through the engine???

 

[Lazy Daze]

That's normal for the drive to drip for days. I believe the newer style pump bodies drain much quicker, but I'm not positive.

Reaching the top hose on the Bravo pump is not as easy as the t-stat housing hoses (on some boats), but it is always doable. Once you take that hose off and "bump", you're good to go. Pouring AF into the intake hose on the housing is all you have to do. The AF does not have to go past the pump - although it will eventually do that.

In fact, the pump really does not even have to any AF in it. Even if there is a little water still in there, it won't cause any damage.

The hoses on the top of the t-stat housing only take about 2 minutes to remove.

There's no real benefit to forcing (pressurizing) AF through the block. You're putting too much thought into that aspect - you must be an engineer! :smt001

In the end, do what you feel comfortable with - just want to make sure there are no misconceptions about the hose method. The bucket method can work, but the hose method always works.

 

[widowmaker]

This has been an interesting discussion. I looked through my owners manual last night and it showed how to drain the engine but it showed nothing on how to fill the AF into the engine. Why isn't this covered?? They suggest dealership service, probably a legal issue and left to shop manuals.

I've been successfully doing the "bucket method" for the past two years, with 0 degree winters. I've considered the "pull the hoses" method but right now I'm set to the "bucket nethod" again this Saturday...but I'm still considering.

I watched the YouTube video and the "pull the hose" method seems like more work to me. I'd have to remove (4) baked-on hoses, and risk the danger of running a screwdriver through my hand trying to get the hoses off (Mr. Bad Wrench) or even ripping a hose off.

I have to agree with Dennis about what method always works, but the bucket method seems easier and works as long as you have faith in an open thermostat.

SeaRay... is it hard to get your lower drain plugs out of the water pump? Mine are a royal "stand on your head" maneuver.

Best

 

[SeaRay]

you must be an engineer!

That I am!! Good call, and yes I do tend to over analyze everything :grin:



So, just for my own better understanding...why wouldn't the bucket method guarantee that you aren't getting all the water out? Is it just the concern over whether the T-stat is open?


I saw something else today that might change the sequence I did things when winterizing. It made sense after I read it but I never really thought about it before.

I understand one of the main reasons to change your oil before storing is to get the dirty acidic oil out of the engine for the storage period.

But, what I read was that you should run the engine after changing the oil to help get the old oil off the cylinder walls, out of the bearings and off all the metal surfaces. If you simply change the oil and not run the engine afterwards you leave a lot coated with the old oil.

Well, that makes sense. But I would always warm the engine up before draining the oil and give the oil lots of time to drain. Enough time that it wouldn't be warm (and the thermostat would be closed again) when I went to start it again and run the AF through it.

So I would have to run the engine a long time to ensure the T-Stat is open before I used the bucket method.

That being said, maybe I would do the hose method....and only worry about warming up the engine once.

 

[SeaRay]

Widowmaker,

I can get to the plug on the water pump without too much difficulty, a couple of the others are probably harder to reach.

But getting AF through it would be a little tough. A long skinny funnel might work.

What about just removing the t-stat and using the bucket method....You would need a new gasket but you are just removing 2 bolts now instead of 5 hoses???

 

[Alex F]

.......
I understand one of the main reasons to change your oil before storing is to get the dirty acidic oil out of the engine for the storage period.

But, what I read was that you should run the engine after changing the oil to help get the old oil off the cylinder walls, out of the bearings and off all the metal surfaces. If you simply change the oil and not run the engine afterwards you leave a lot coated with the old oil.

Well, that makes sense. But I would always warm the engine up before draining the oil and give the oil lots of time to drain. Enough time that it wouldn't be warm (and the thermostat would be closed again) when I went to start it again and run the AF through it.

So I would have to run the engine a long time to ensure the T-Stat is open before I used the bucket method.

That being said, maybe I would do the hose method....and only worry about warming up the engine once.

If I understand correctly, the problem is that you're trying to kill two birds with one stone. Break it down in to separate steps (oil change and then winterize the engines) and there will be nothing to worry about what method to use, bucket or the hose.

 

[andyr]

Thanks for all the replies.

I still like the bucket method....It seems to me that disconnecting five hoses and trying to pour anti freeze through the water pump hose on my boat wouldn't be fun.
Would either the bucket method or the hose method make sure that there isn't any water left in the drive?

Some people just pull 2 hoses. I'm anal and take the extra step of pouring antifreeze into the manifolds but just draining them like the book says is good enough. It only takes me about 10 minutes to pull the hoses.

Nothing wrong with the muff method. I've done it for years. Run the engine until the temperature gauge reads normal to be sure the thermostat is open then switch to AF.

 

[BonBini]

SeaRay: Now that we know you’re an engineer, we can talk at you a little differently.:grin:

Water freezing has to be under pressure to break anything like a cly block. Water can freeze in a expandable area like a rubber hose and not hurt a thing. Lazy points out draing the block and such, now it wont freeze. Then filling with antifreeze, now it’s corrosion protected. Bump the engine to purge some water out of the lower water pump impeller area and your done. When the customer is paying the bill, one needs to be quick and efficient…. Also the boat doesn’t have antifreeze dripping out of it all winter. That would not make a good impression of the storage area. In the spring, draining the afreeze into the bilge, then collecting out the drain to be reused next time is a more cost effective and environmentally friendly way. I’ll be taking the Lazy way next year! ie: drain, bump, fill.

Changing your engine oil and the whole acid business eating away at the soft bearing material: The oil has to have the ability to lubricate, cool, clean and protect. Protect, neutralize the acids. The oil can do this for a long time. With only a few hours on the oil, it can still protect. When the oil is old and scanky, that’s when it can’t. Manufacturers recommend changing the oil just before storage for the masses with old, scanky oil. Nothing wrong with changing the oil towards the end of the season and putting it away with a couple hours on it. Probably better than running on the muffs just to draw in more moisture as it cools!