Advice for buying a 2013+ 510 DA?

[La Rea]

Hi folks -- I'm shopping for a 2013-2017 510DA, and would appreciate any CSR wisdom on model-specific issues to consider.

I've inspected two 510s, and taken one for a short cruise. I know to ask about stringer repairs, and I know to prepare my wallet for the cost of maintaining pods. Are there any common problems I should look for on a 510DA?

Can anybody comment on the pro's and con's of the various engine packages?

Since this is my first CSR post, here's some boring background on me. Veteran boater with 30k miles of inland cruising. Past Commodore of a 400-member yacht club. Avid DIY enthusiast. On other boating forums, I've written around 10,000 posts over the years, mostly helping other boaters solve problems. A 510 might be only my first Sea Ray, but don't hold that against me!

Thanks.

 

[dtfeld]

Welcome to CSR!!

Sounds like your going in to this eyes (and wallet) wide open. There are several threads on here specific to the boats you are looking at and the pods under them. The latest one I read was about surface treating the shafts to improve the seals.

 

[La Rea]

My biggest question is about horsepower. The listings quote ratings of 526, 550 and 600 HP. Online discussions about RPM and torque shed only faint light on the subject. I'd love to hear from owners about their experience. Is a 526-HP boat underpowered?

Everything else seems straightforward. Hours, condition, independent surveys.

 

[Skybolt]

I would seriously consider looking at a v-drive boat over the pods, but that's me. With regards to hp, more is always better but with a diesel don't go over the 1:1 hp to displacement rule. Can't speak to that particular boat and what HP is needed. But just googling them and it seems the 600hp is quite popular, that says something.

 

[dtfeld]

Have you owned a diesel powered boat before? Looks like Cummins power. Check out www.sbmar.com Huge amount of info on the Cummins engines from Tony Athens and also www.boatdiesel.com is worth a membership.

I believe in the QSC's the difference in power is just a program in the ECM. I cant imagine a huge difference in speed at cruise. Of course it really comes down to how you load the boat.

 

[FootballFan]

QSC600 run at much higher rpm. 50% more than my current engines.

 

[La Rea]

Pods vs. shafts: Yes, I've researched that tradeoff ad nauseum, and decided to accept pods with the higher cost and rigorous PM schedule. Joystick/skyhook is a choice that drove my interest in the 510DA. The system won me over when I saw it in person.

My experience is with Mercruiser gas power and outdrives, but I'm a details geek doing my due diligence. Just looking for some model-specific feedback on the 510.

A broker friend showed me his analysis of 90 past 510DA sales. In his data, only about 25% of the boats had the 600s. One third of the boats had the 526HP engines, and the rest were reported as 550 or 575 HP.

Maybe a 510DA owner will chime in and say "my 526s run just great" or "I'd never settle for less than the 600s" or whatever.

 

[PM40]

Although I did not own a 510, I did own its "little sister", a 2015 470. I purchased it from the original owner (in 2020) with only 260 hours and it had excellent service history, the original owner spared no expense. The boat originally lived in Rhode Island before I bought her and took her to the Chesapeake Bay.

The quality of the boat was absolutely terrible. Both the 470 and 510 had two major quality issues that are inherent in every unit, interior and exterior soft goods that degrade and need replacing and the cabinetry delaminating. Sea Ray actually put an extended warranty of an additional 3 years for soft good replacement since the problem was so prolific. Incidently, the owner of my boat did not know about the extension until after it expired and he spent over $13,000 replacing all the interior sofas and helm seat. Sea Ray did not offer any warranty for the delaminating laminate on the interiors.

Water leaks are also rampant on both the 470 and 510 models. The hard top, front windshield, and side windows had horrible water intrusion from new. I found several pieces of trim that was soft to the touch. I removed three separate trim pieces (wood covered in soft vinyl material) and the wood was rotted to the core. I had to rebuild the interior pieces from scratch and recover with new material. Figuring out where the water intrusion was coming from and repairing it was not fun either.

Although the 470 did not have the stringer issues that the 510 did/does, I noticed that the fit and finish of the boat was very poor and not to the quality I had become used to from previous Sea Rays owned.

Every weekend was another repair project that kept me busy and from truly enjoying the boat. I am a bit OCD and do like to have a near perfect boat, but every time I boarded my 470, it was something else that needed to be fixed. I remember on sea trial, the high water alarm in the cabin would blast when getting on plane. The broker said that the boat did that all the time and the owner said it always did it from the time he took delivery. I found the master stateroom floor had a hatch that I removed and found to be full of water (luckily this compartment had a sump pump). Long story short, I had to take the whole aft stateroom bed apart only to find a large pooling of water in the floor section. I traced it back to the air conditioning unit under the lower salon sofa. Turns out, whenever either shower was being used, the waste water would drain to the shower sump box, but instead of being pumped overboard, the piping was routed to the a/c unit under lower salon sofa. That was obviously done from the factory. After fixing that problem, I had enough of the boat and sold it.

In addition to those problems, I had more gelcoat cracks and waves in the hull sides (gelcoat was wavy) that I couldn't believe sea ray actually charged 1.2 million for this boat when new.

One thing I did really like about the boat was the glass doors and lack of having to fuss with any canvas. Return from boating, clean boat, shut door and walk away. That was the best part. Even with all my issues, I was brick headed enough to consider a 2015 Sea Ray 510. My broker took me to see one (after wanting to smack me for even thinking about another boat from this production run of poor quality models from Sea Ray. It had only 250 hours on it and was a complete disaster. The small storage compartment on the port side just to the left of the steps to the lower salon/galley area was full of water. You could see on the upper salon, the laminate wood flooring was water damaged and delaminating. I could also see other areas of water intrusion around the base of the windshield on the port side. The soft goods were original and there was significant wear/cracking of the vinyl/faux leather (I forget the formal name of the textile they use). The laminate cabinetry was delaminating (high gloss cherry) in a few spots just like in my 470. I had seen enough, I ruled that model out for good.

It is easy to understand why someone would be drawn to the 510, it is a stunningly beautiful boat with a great interior layout (in my opinion). I wasn't about to spend north of $700k on a boat that was manufactured to such a poor standard with low quality materials.

I ended up going back a few years to a 2012 Sea Ray 540. Ahhhh, the quality that I was used to in a sea ray was immediately apparent. Gel coat, perfect! Soft goods, as new! After taking a little time to get the boat "dialed in" to my OCD specification, it has been a real pleasure. The only thing I miss is the ease of life without canvas. The quality of the boat, the center helm position, and the enourmous cockpit more than makes up for the small inconvenience of having to put up aft canvas.

I have extensive experience with pods, they are amazing! The boat feels like it floats on top of the water rather than plowing through it like with V drives. It handles/turns like a waverunner (amazing feeling on a 50k lb vessel) and the fuel economy over a V drive is definately noticeable (especially with 600 gallon tanks at over $5 per gallon of diesel). I don't use the joystick much, I much prefer docking with the sticks. The joystick comes in handy when leaving a tight spot at the dock and you need to move sideways.
Perform your yearly maintenance religously and you should be good to go. I have logged a ton of hours on two seperate pod boats and have not experienced any issues. Most of the problems with pods were from the generation 1 and generation 2 pods. When you have gen 3, Mercury/Zeus seemed to figure out the flaws in their initial design and they were rectified. Most people telling horror stories or hating on pods are the dopes who have never owned a boat with pods nor do they even know anything about the system setup. They only have "heard" from people who have had problems with pods or read a story on the internet, then they profess to be experts on pods.

Do yourself a favor, look at the 2012 to 2015 Sea Ray 540, much bigger, much better boat in every aspect.

For some reason, Sea Ray quality really fell off the map with respect to quality and workmanship with their 470/510 models and the L series yachts.

Hope this helps . . .

 

[Skybolt]

... Most people telling horror stories or hating on pods are the dopes who have never owned a boat with pods nor do they even know anything about the system setup. They only have "heard" from people who have had problems with pods or read a story on the internet, then they profess to be experts on pods. ...

My experience with POD(s) comes from my friends 2015 510 Fly. Which broke down on every trip we took over two seasons in the NE. I worked on that boat more then my own the first season. I refused to in the second except for the emergencies that always seemed to come up. It was so bad that Sea Ray gave him his money back, with a little help from a lawyer.

But to your point he got a 2012, a 510 dancer with v-drives and still has the boat today and loves it.

Your post is a great post that is sure to help the OP.

 

[La Rea]

@pm4 -- thanks for taking so much time to share your thoughts! That's exactly the sort of help I'm looking for, and you've given me a lot to consider. Obviously, the hull survey will be an all-day affair if we get to that point. I love working on boats, but I don't want a lemon.

When did SR start installing the Gen 3 pods?

You mentioned the glass doors with no canvas. For me, that's a big deal. I want the security of a lockable glass door for long-distance cruising. The 540 would vault to the top of my list if it had those glass doors.

 

[ttmott]

Didn't SR terminate the Skyhook feature with one of the software updates??
Did they get it all straightened out and the feature is back?

 

[PM40]

Gen 3 pods are 2012 on forward.

The glass doors were definitely nice, especially when traveling to other marinas for the weekend. Easy to close up the boat at night, great for privacy, etc. On the other hand, you lose that open air boating feeling when operating the boat with the helm on the interior, sometimes it can feel like you are boating from your living room.
The 540 has a great helm station surrounded by a huge cockpit which is great for entertaining and experiencing that open air feeling when out on the water.

If you want glass doors in a larger express cruiser then the sunseeker 57 is the next viable option. Over 1 million dollars for a 2015 put it out of my affordability range, but it is a beautiful and very well built boat!

Good luck and keep us informed which model you end up with.

 

[La Rea]

Notes from the survey yesterday on the 510DA -- I'd welcome any comments.

We were underway for about three hours transiting to the haulout and making WOT runs. In general, it went well. We didn't find any major mechanical fails or moisture issues. I'll meet with the surveyor Thursday or Friday to review his report.

One of the prop blades is visibly bent forward about 1/2", so we'll need to have the props reconditioned.

I was expecting 30 knots and 3000 RPM at WOT. We only got 27 knots at 2850 RPM, so that's a concern. By turning off the auto-trim and manually adjusting the trim tabs, we got around 28 kts at 2900 rpm. Maybe the props are a contributing factor, but we might end up hiring a Cummins specialist to have a look.

The surveyor suspects (pending oil analysis) that there might be a little water in the stbd pod gear lube. If that's confirmed, I guess the pod will come off to be resealed.

Other small items that need attention now or soon:
* Stbd sea water pump - bearing is leaking (replace pump)
* Need to reseal windows (minor drips, but no evidence of chronic water damage)
* Various engine hoses will need be replaced soon
* In general, the cleanliness of the engine room does not meet my standards.

In general, it's in good shape, but it's 10 years old. I'll have plenty of small jobs to keep me busy for at least the next few months!

 

[Maybe A Dancer]

Seems to me, from all I have heard and read that there was a GOLDEN AGE of quality for Sea Ray's larger boats, say 40'+

That excellence in engineering, design and build is now very apparent as many of these vessels age far better than others.

As I dig into my own 1996 450 DA, I am surprised and pleased at the well thought out EVERYTHING, especially the structural, electrical & plumbing systems.

While there were shortcomings due to the inadequate factory hatch installations/sealing methods and the balsa deck cores, if caught early this can be easily and permanently rectified.

Maintenance is key.

Interestingly, other than the canvas and carpets, all the cabin/cockpit factory soft goods are still decent and serviceable on this 27 year old vessel.

I don't know enough to determine what that period of quality production on the larger boats was, but I'm damned glad to be a part of it.

BEST !

RWS

 

[SeaNile]

I would have expected zero issues from those years. I still love the 03.5-08 years. Quality was good and the looks from that era are my favorite.

 

[dtfeld]

The two items I’d be most concerned about is the inability to make WOT by a pretty significant amount and of course the water in the Pod. You note the bent prop, I assume only on one side so that doesn’t explain why the other side didn’t make WOT. Was the test done with an engine sync engaged?

Also you didn’t specify bottom condition, fuel, water and people onboard for the test, but that will also be important when addressing the inability to make WOT. Basically, the boat seems to have been run in an overloaded state for a while. I would assume that you will add more fuel , water, people, gear making the boat heavier and exacerbating your loading problem.

Sea Ray consistently over prop’d their diesel boats from the factory almost across the board in their earlier v-drive and strait shaft boats, so that may have carried over to the Pod boats as well. The way to remedy this is to make the boat lighter or take out some prop. Some of this might be just getting these props tuned up to the original specs or maybe a bottom job, but if you are consistently unable to hit WOT (engine overloaded) your only recourse is going to be re-prop down and inch or two in pitch. You may want to factor in the cost to get the boat to perform to spec (bottom cleaned, prop work, new props) or make hitting WOT a condition on the current owner.

I harp on not making WOT with the diesels because overloading them is a sure way to greatly increase your MX cost and/or severely limit its life span. Treated well these engines will go 1000’s of hours. The First Commandmant of diesel engines is Thall Shall not overload the engine!

The water in the pod may be related to the bent prop (maybe there was a minor prop strike, shit happens) and getting that addressed before it cascades would also be on my immediately fix list.

The rest of it seems to be usual MX kind of stuff.

Overall, seems like a good boat, and with your experience and a little due diligence, could be a great boat. I don’t see any deal breakers.

 

[ttmott]

For the most part during negotiations I (as the buyer) opt to do repairs and corrections with a cost offset rather than have the seller do them only because the quality of the correction is assured; sellers and brokers will execute the cheapest path. However, in the case of work on pods, propellers, gears, and engines I'd put that on the seller with stipulation a certified shop do the work with the surveyor doing an overview only because the survey cannot diagnose the scope of the work. What you might get as an estimate of $3k to repair a leaking POD can easily turn into a $20k debacle replacing gears, shafts, and bearings. If you are stuck with this there is no recourse back to the seller.

I say this because a bent prop could mean a bent shaft which could lead to seal leakage and water in the POD. You simply can't know until the repair is underway.

 

[Carver370]

From my experience with the QSC and Zeus pods they usually do not need to make over the rated RPM like a traditional shaft boat. This was explained to me by a Cummins tech on a variety of sea trials.

The Zeus boats will basically never make rated RPM with the auto tabs on, always shut that off and bring the tabs all the way up to obtain your true max rpm.

If there is water in the pod, have that repaired immediately.

The counter rotating props are extremely sensitive to any deviation from factory spec, so a small ding could easily be the contributing factor. One side not making WOT will drag down the other side with it if we are only talking 100 RPM. I was running a 48 Sabre down the Mississippi river one year and we snagged a small branch between both props on the port side, no vibration at all but we were down about 100 rpm WOT, we had the boat hauled when we arrived in FL and could barely tell that the prop was damaged, repaired that and we were right back up to 3000.

If I'm the buyer, I'm asking the seller to repair the pod, and have the props scanned before I would re-sea trial the boat with a Cummins tech on board.

I have been through a variety of Zeus related issues, in general terms every time we had to have something done to the pods it was 12-30k by the time we were done.

 

[dtfeld]

I agree that they don't necessarily need to make over rated RPM especially if they are electronically controlled. However, it should make rated WOT, or there should be a known reason and corrected. Some of the reasons could be simple and relatively inexpensive, but digging into twin pods is not one of those items especially right when you take ownership and the all money you are laying down. This is a chance for the OP to possibly save himself tens of thousands of $.

 

[SeaNile]

I really, really want to like pods but I just can't get there. Maybe I'm too old school at this point?