99 460 survey and sea trial in Miami

[Steve500dancer]

Well, things didn't go so well on the sea trial on the 460 this past Wednesday. Things started off rather well. The boat cosmetically looked much better then we were anticipating. Canvas looked pretty good, cockpit vinyl had a few cracks but overall it looked better then we were expecting. Cockpit carpet was missing a few pieces and the boat just really needed a good buff, wax and detailing.

The engine room was pretty rough, lots of rust and dirt. A typical un maintained boat sitting in salt. It started out a little bad when the generator would not fire up and the starboard motor dragging when we went to fire it up. The generator had just had a new stater installed a few months ago and looked like new on the front side. However, aft was covered in rust from a leak that went un checked for some time.

Here is when things started to go well and turned to **** in a hurry. We fired up both motors and everything looked good. Great oil pressure, exact same RPM's at idle and perfectly synchronized. She went into gear nicely and away we went. Nice and smooth with no vibration or cavitation. The temp started to climb a little faster on the starboard side motor. The disial surveyor wanted to shut her down so we could get some readings and our oil samples. Now we new that the last time the captain had the boat out, the starboard motor starting to get hot and was shut down. When we backed the boat down for the surveyor to do his thing we popped the engine hatch and steam had filled the boat. We immediately found the cause. The starboard exhaust manifold had a large crack across the top. Upon further inspection the surveyor found a pool of oil that appeared to be coming from the head gasket.

Their is no chance that the captain just got it a little hot and shut it down. He had to have boiled it over real good in order to crack that manifold and pop that head gasket. I think he must have been hoping nothing blew. If that engine got hot enough to crack that manifold then the chances are that the magnesium pistons are damaged.

The diesel surveyor is confident that the starboard engine will need replacement. Along with all the hoses, all the motor mounts both starboard and port. The after coolers will have to removed and boiled, the water pumps will both have to be replaced and the list goes on and on.

We are hoping to have a complete list and price on the engine work and everything that has to be done in the engine room. His guess is 40 to 50k. This is a good lesson on maintance. This boat only has 440 hours on the Cummins. It is owned by a very wealthy man that could have easily had the right person maintain the boat. What a shame.

We are still waiting to get the report on from the other surveyor. A few things that he had mentioned were. The electric platform motor was covered in rust and would need a complete rebuild, the shore power cable was toast, the shower heads would not work, the batteries all needed to be replaced, the contact for the central vacuum was missing, just some little stuff like that. I haven't got the report yet.

The owner of the boat did ask if we were still interested in the boat if we could work out the repairs and numbers.

Steve

 

[Hampton]

Wow - Good news/Bad news. Good news you found it all before the purchase and that it may all be fixed and ready to go, bad news that you have to deal with it.

Good luck - nice boat.

 

[Pyrojodge]

Oh wow... Hate to hear the news... Maybe a deal can still be struck where you will get the repairs done and still get a fair price for the vessel... Keep us posted and Happy New Year...

 

[mmcguire2002]

You dodged a major bullet. Nice work. This is why surveys are worth the money prior to purchase.

 

[Alex F]

Wow, sorry to hear that, but as John said, it's a good news that you found it during your pre-purchase inspections. Good luck with the rest on wherever this deal will be heading. If the owner is serious enough, he should recognize the mistakes he made and accept the responsibility to have all of the items fixed. After all, if this boat will end up with motor it could be a great advantage for you. But, due to the fact that there was lack of maintenance I would double check everything on the other engine and generator.

 

[northern]

We looked at many boats before we got this one. Two boats we looked at we spent 2,500 a trip to see them both times the survey turned up bad things. On one boat the serveyer walked on the boat and in five minutes asked if we wanted to stop and he would only charge half price. Good serveyers are well worth the cost.

 

[All's Well]

Well, that stinks.

It's disappointing to find undisclosed items during an inspection and sea trial. There comes a point when you have to walk away based on the other things that you didn't find because you were consumed by the "major" stuff.

 

[fwebster]

My advice would be to not throw in the towel until you see real numbers from real mechanics. Surveyors who don't repair engines on a regular basis have always got a CYA factor in estimates. Aside from that, we almost always jump to assuming a worst case scenario when things happen to boats. Most of the time, it really isn't as bad as it initially looks. However, from your description of the engines and how they run, it appears that at least one engine was severely overheated and has caused a head gasket failure. If the engine got that hot, then you won't get out with just a head gasket replacement. Count on at least a top end rebuild on that engine with liners, pistons gaskets, etc.

About the biggest gotcha on this one is if the engines have to be removed. You will need to get either a Sea Ray dealer or a yard experienced with disassembling Sea Rays to remove the cockpit and deck...its a big job and a Cummins guy won't usually do it.

Good luck with it............

 

[a6fan1127]

I gotta say "Why bother?" There are alot of great, well maintained boats out there. This engine "thing" is only the tip of the iceberg with this boat. I wouldn't do it if it was given to me! Not worth the headaches.

 

[fwebster]

The "Why bother?" answer is because you don't know the numbers on the contract.

The "why you stay in it now" is to get real costs on the repairs needed.

How else can the buyer make an informed decision on what to do? Keep in mind that there are all types of boat buyers here on CSR.......some don't mind a little work and elbow grease to own a nice boat at well under market value while others won't even buy a used boat.

 

[a6fan1127]

First off - pulling the engine and replacing it is not applying "a little elbow grease"! Second - the description of the genny and other details show a lack of maintainance and neglect by the previous owner. Third - Do you think the rest of the boat is any better maintained? Really? The prospective buyer has minimal $ invested and would be MUCH better off looking at other boats that present better and at LEAST make it out of the harbor for a sea trial! - It isn't the only SR 460 for sale.

The "Why bother?" answer is because you don't know the numbers on the contract.

The "why you stay in it now" is to get real costs on the repairs needed.

How else can the buyer make an informed decision on what to do? Keep in mind that there are all types of boat buyers here on CSR.......some don't mind a little work and elbow grease to own a nice boat at well under market value while others won't even buy a used boat.

 

[Carver370]

I actually went through a similar situation last year while 460 shopping with a friend. His pocket book was attracted to the Salty boats but we kissed a few frogs before he determined that a boat from down south would never satisfy him for use on the Great Lakes. Wound up buying a boat that wasn't far away after all and overall a better deal.

In MY opinion, I wouldn't touch a boat with any issues like stated unless the pricing was VERY low. I am talking low in the sense that the 340 would have been an even trade. Everybody has their own sense of what they will accept but I am way too picky about my boats and cars to take on a project like this.

I would also be very reluctant to even entertain the idea of having the seller have the boat fixed, I would rather take the reduction and have the mechanic that YOU trust do the work. Preferrably somebody in your area that you will have to come in contact with often.

 

[fwebster]

This isn't my first rodeo. I fully understand what is involved in a major engine repair to a 460DA, and I stand by the statement I made.....i.e. "Work and a little elbow grease" Apparently, you missed the "work" part.

You mention the generator description....it was that the back side of the generator was a rusty mess. Well, that is a 8BTD in that boat and all it takes is a loose hose clamp on the sea water pump and you get a steady drip of sea water on the front and rear engine mounts, and left side mounting rail and the genset looks like a horror story. In reality it is a $600 repair involving replacing the rusted parts. Far from a total loss and hardly indicative of total neglect because the back side of the generator is nearly impossible to see and there are no warning lights and sirens to tell you the leak has occurred.

The sellers question wasn't will you buy it if I fix it, but rather "Would you still buy it if we worked out the repairs and the numbers?" The buyer in this case isn't a babe in the woods, he buys and restores boats and enjoys projects. He wouldn't ever entertain allowing the seller to do this level of repair on the boat in question.

And I still think you are second guessing the situation when you don't know the offer that was accepted. I do, and if the OP wishes to divulge them, he can. Suffice it to say, this isn't a fools errand, but a worthwhile pursuit if the seller will discount the accepted price by the real cost of the needed repairs. If this boat can be purchased for that amount, then somebody is going to get one heck of a buy.........why not the original poster who found the boat and negotiated the deal?

 

[HUMPH]

I must agree with Frank since my beautiful 410DA was not maintained properly and was in fact a repo. I have done quite a lot of maintenance on it but according to another CSR member who boat almost the exact same boat, he spent about the same amount or more to get his "maintained" boat to the same condition as mine. You have to look at the value you can get the boat for then add the repairs and maintenance costs to make the boat just what you want. In my case, I am picky and the Admiral is very picky so we really had to understand what good bones the boat had so we were able to make the correct decision and have not regretted it for a minute!

 

[plumbhappy]

I can verify the picky part on both counts, but you've done an excellent job with this boat. If someone saw this boat today for the first time they would think the boat had been pampered it's whole life.

Ken, she's beautiful!

Rob

 

[Turtlesboat]

One mans horror story is another mans dream, all depends on how you look at it. Frank has a unique way of looking at a deal and those that choose to ignore his advice will never know the sweet taste of lemonade.

 

[Avenger]

we really had to understand what good bones the boat had so we were able to make the correct decision and have not regretted it for a minute!

If the deal is sweet enough this is what it really amounts to for me. Most used boats will require some degree of maint/upgrades, etc in order to meet the expectactions of the new owner. If you can save a bundle up front, and are willing and able to do, or over see the needed repairs and upgrades, you end up with a boat that you know inside and out. Additionally you will have most of the upgrades already done that you would of eventually had to do on a boat that cost much more. Just one point of view I guess. Good luck with your deal, the 460 is a dream boat for me on any account.