58 Sedan Bridge Official Thread

[ttmott]

Distance is cable size. If a cable being too small cannot convey the current the voltage will drop to the end item demanding the current and energy will be lost in heat. Other than the thruster having to work longer due to the losses the battery doesn't care.

This better justifies the need for the 8D's.

He says it is a Max-Power Series 160 with a rating of 550 amps. That is rotor start current, obviously, which sizes the cabling. What we don't know is the run current which sizes the batteries other than the fuse is 250 amps. What is interesting is the bow thrusters are more concerned with battery cranking ratings than amp hours. Probably like starting an engine it is that current required to get the thruster motor rotating.... This is all new territory to me.

 

[carterchapman]

This would be my guess, I think we looked at only one or two 58's with out the stern thruster out of about 20-30 boats. It does also help having all the same batteries for rotation like Jeff mentioned above.

Mine has a lot of options - but no stern thruster!

 

[tc410]

Now that I think about it, my 52 had both bow and stern thruster with Group 31’s. I’m curious what the objection is to just putting the 8D’s back in as outfitted from the factory?

 

[ttmott]

Now that I think about it, my 52 had both bow and stern thruster with Group 31’s. I’m curious what the objection is to just putting the 8D’s back in as outfitted from the factory?

I think none other than why if not needed and better access with a smaller footprint.

 

[ranger58sb]

My ‘05 has 8D’s. My rotation is to replace house set, starting set, and move the second oldest set down to the thruster bank, if that makes sense. I have a stern thruster too. I wonder if there is something to the length of the run as mentioned above? The 58 has the batts far aft in the lazarette and the 52 has them forward of the main engines - about half the distance?

The 8D pair for the thruster is far enough aft so that I'd guess potential voltage drop over the distance to the bow was a consideration.

As I understand the owner's manual (being boatless, just now),the two 8D pairs on the starboard/aft side are both starters "as well as to supply the electrical system loads." So combo start/house? I haven't puzzled out -- from the DC panel diagrams -- how (if?) specific loads are apportioned to each of those banks...

???

-Chris

 

[ttmott]

The 8D pair for the thruster is far enough aft so that I'd guess potential voltage drop over the distance to the bow was a consideration.

As I understand the owner's manual (being boatless, just now),the two 8D pairs on the starboard/aft side are both starters "as well as to supply the electrical system loads." So combo start/house? I haven't puzzled out -- from the DC panel diagrams -- how (if?) specific loads are apportioned to each of those banks...

???

-Chris

Yes - Typical of Sea Ray boats there is no dedicated "house bank". The house, navigation, and start loads are shared by both banks; at least in the boats I've seen and had my hands on. The 550/58 is a 24 volt system for both start/house banks; the 12 volt house and navigation loads are derived from one of the 8D batteries in each of the banks and the balancing is accomplished by equalizers; it's a complicated configuration.
Today, technology has changed and high current DC to DC converters can replace the complex wiring and equalizers that SR put on the boats to get from the 24V battery banks to the 12 volt systems.

 

[ttmott]

Regarding the bow thruster batteries and a boat without the stern thruster -
The bow thruster has a 250 amp fuse so let's assume steady state current of 200 amps (worst case). The motor start current can be ignored as this is virtually instataneous.
With dual 8D batteries in series (24 volts) rated at 270 amp hour the useable (50%) is 140 Ah. So, at a 200 amp draw then obviously the thruster can be used up to 42 minutes between charges less any losses in heat. It will take a good 50 amp charger about 4 to 6 hours to bring the 8D bank back to float (full charge). Of course that 42 minutes increases if the charger is always charging. That's a lot of thruster time.... By the way the thruster thermal limits will kick it off line at some point well before several minutes.
Ok, let's look at replacing the 8D bank with a Group 31 bank. A typical Gp31M dual purpose battery rated at 100 Ah has a useable 50 Ah. So two Gp 31M's in series gives 24 volts at 50 Ah useable. at a 200 amp draw that then provides 15 minutes of thruster operation between charges. Two GP 31M will charge faster than two 8D batteries but still probably around 4 hours.
15 minutes is a lot of thruster time..... I think two Gp 31 batteries is ample for an experienced operator.....
Thoughts?

 

[swaterhouse]

Regarding the bow thruster batteries and a boat without the stern thruster -
The bow thruster has a 250 amp fuse so let's assume steady state current of 200 amps (worst case). The motor start current can be ignored as this is virtually instataneous.
With dual 8D batteries in series (24 volts) rated at 270 amp hour the useable (50%) is 140 Ah. So, at a 200 amp draw then obviously the thruster can be used up to 42 minutes between charges less any losses in heat. It will take a good 50 amp charger about 4 to 6 hours to bring the 8D bank back to float (full charge). Of course that 42 minutes increases if the charger is always charging. That's a lot of thruster time.... By the way the thruster thermal limits will kick it off line at some point well before several minutes.
Ok, let's look at replacing the 8D bank with a Group 31 bank. A typical Gp31M dual purpose battery rated at 100 Ah has a useable 50 Ah. So two Gp 31M's in series gives 24 volts at 50 Ah useable. at a 200 amp draw that then provides 15 minutes of thruster operation between charges. Two GP 31M will charge faster than two 8D batteries but still probably around 4 hours.
15 minutes is a lot of thruster time..... I think two Gp 31 batteries is ample for an experienced operator.....
Thoughts?

For a boat without a stern thruster I would agree, especially one like a 550/58 that has limited battery power and its unlikely to not have a generator running almost all the time.

 

[ranger58sb]

Can someone identify the model number/name/etc. for the Mathers gear/throttle control in 2006 58DBs?



I don't find anything exactly like that on the current ZF site...

-Chris

 

[swaterhouse]

Can someone identify the model number/name/etc. for the Mathers gear/throttle control in 2006 58DBs?

View attachment 105243

I don't find anything exactly like that on the current ZF site...

-Chris

I believe it's made by Bosch-Rexroth. If you join BoatDiesel you can download the operation and maintenance manuals for the engines. The operation manual covers in pretty good detail how the displays and control operations work. I read both before doing my survey and sea trial and had a good list of questions for the surveyor. I found the manuals quite good.

 

[ranger58sb]

Ha! That was the key, thanks. I hadn't downloaded the MAN Operating Instructions yet (just did), and since the Sea Ray manual says "Mathers" I was searching in that direction.

Anyway, thanks very much, that's what I was looking for!

Cheers, -Chris

 

[The Bill Collector]

Regarding the bow thruster batteries and a boat without the stern thruster -
The bow thruster has a 250 amp fuse so let's assume steady state current of 200 amps (worst case). The motor start current can be ignored as this is virtually instataneous.
With dual 8D batteries in series (24 volts) rated at 270 amp hour the useable (50%) is 140 Ah. So, at a 200 amp draw then obviously the thruster can be used up to 42 minutes between charges less any losses in heat. It will take a good 50 amp charger about 4 to 6 hours to bring the 8D bank back to float (full charge). Of course that 42 minutes increases if the charger is always charging. That's a lot of thruster time.... By the way the thruster thermal limits will kick it off line at some point well before several minutes.
Ok, let's look at replacing the 8D bank with a Group 31 bank. A typical Gp31M dual purpose battery rated at 100 Ah has a useable 50 Ah. So two Gp 31M's in series gives 24 volts at 50 Ah useable. at a 200 amp draw that then provides 15 minutes of thruster operation between charges. Two GP 31M will charge faster than two 8D batteries but still probably around 4 hours.
15 minutes is a lot of thruster time..... I think two Gp 31 batteries is ample for an experienced operator.....
Thoughts?

I just blew my 425 amp 12v fuse for my bow thruster, it was a little loose in it's holder and I think it built up a little resistance and popped.

 

[ttmott]

I just blew my 425 amp 12v fuse for my bow thruster, it was a little loose in it's holder and I think it built up a little resistance and popped.

I could see that Mark - one spark and who knows how many amps spiked if that motor was trying to start rotating. Is it an ANL fuse or Class T?

 

[The Bill Collector]

I could see that Mark - one spark and who knows how many amps spiked if that motor was trying to start rotating. Is it an ANL fuse or Class T?

ANL
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005F57NVE/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[swaterhouse]

Has anyone replaced the sanitation hoses between the toilets and the vacuum generators?

If so is there any access between the heads and the engine room? I think the hoses are run inside of pvc pipes, but the parts manual shows at least a bend between the forward head and the engine room.

The hose between the generators and holding tank is run inside PVC but its not continuous, there are gaps of 3-4" between pipes and at the bends.

Contractor is worried he will get something stuck trying to pull them out. The part visible in the engine room has some pretty severe dry rot.

Boat is due to leave TX next week for a 2+ week delivery trip to MA, and we don't want to be stuck without a working head!

 

[techmitch]

Has anyone replaced the sanitation hoses between the toilets and the vacuum generators?

If so is there any access between the heads and the engine room? I think the hoses are run inside of pvc pipes, but the parts manual shows at least a bend between the forward head and the engine room.

The hose between the generators and holding tank is run inside PVC but its not continuous, there are gaps of 3-4" between pipes and at the bends.

Contractor is worried he will get something stuck trying to pull them out. The part visible in the engine room has some pretty severe dry rot.

Boat is due to leave TX next week for a 2+ week delivery trip to MA, and we don't want to be stuck without a working head!

View attachment 105986

Sorry I can't help with the sani. hose issue, but please tell me we will hear about your trip north?

 

[swaterhouse]

Sorry I can't help with the sani. hose issue, but please tell me we will hear about your trip north?

Unfortunately I will not be on board for any of it, but will post about some of it.

 

[bmac]

Scott, a few seasons ago I thought I needed to replace those hoses due to a putrid odor in the MSR and hallway, but it turned out that I had a slow leak from the water supply line to the MSR Head toilet that stagnated in the center bilge and stunk the place up. In preparation for replacement I had the same question you did. Couldn't quite figure it out so I called SR Customer service and they indeed had a whole written procedure for access and replacement. I was amazed that Sea Ray had actually gone to the length to prepare written procedures for long term maintenance, repair and replacement (I had the same experience when I replaced the MSR TV). Anyway, I have the pdf for the hose replacement procedure but it's too large to post here. Send me your e-mail address and I'll e-mail it to you. Good luck with the new boat (you should've bought mine, you'd be enjoying it now).

 

[carterchapman]

Scott, a few seasons ago I thought I needed to replace those hoses due to a putrid odor in the MSR and hallway, but it turned out that I had a slow leak from the water supply line to the MSR Head toilet that stagnated in the center bilge and stunk the place up. In preparation for replacement I had the same question you did. Couldn't quite figure it out so I called SR Customer service and they indeed had a whole written procedure for access and replacement. I was amazed that Sea Ray had actually gone to the length to prepare written procedures for long term maintenance, repair and replacement (I had the same experience when I replaced the MSR TV). Anyway, I have the pdf for the hose replacement procedure but it's too large to post here. Send me your e-mail address and I'll e-mail it to you. Good luck with the new boat (you should've bought mine, you'd be enjoying it now).

Welcome back Brian! Have you found a replacement boat yet?

 

[swaterhouse]

Scott, a few seasons ago I thought I needed to replace those hoses due to a putrid odor in the MSR and hallway, but it turned out that I had a slow leak from the water supply line to the MSR Head toilet that stagnated in the center bilge and stunk the place up. In preparation for replacement I had the same question you did. Couldn't quite figure it out so I called SR Customer service and they indeed had a whole written procedure for access and replacement. I was amazed that Sea Ray had actually gone to the length to prepare written procedures for long term maintenance, repair and replacement (I had the same experience when I replaced the MSR TV). Anyway, I have the pdf for the hose replacement procedure but it's too large to post here. Send me your e-mail address and I'll e-mail it to you. Good luck with the new boat (you should've bought mine, you'd be enjoying it now).

You are 100% right I should have bought yours, unfortunately we were holding out for a Maritimo to hit the market that still has not come to fruition! By the time we decided to give up the wait, nearly half the 58DB's had already sold and all of the good ones, yours was at the top of our list.

As of today there is exactly one 58DB on the market, and last I knew that had a pending offer but that was back in late March so not sure what the actual status of that one is. In September 2020 there were close to 20 58DB's on the market.

I will text you my email, that guide would be a huge help. These hoses look exactly the same condition that my 44DA had when we purchased and that summer the heads stopped holding vacuum because the hoses leaked. Just trying to be proactive this time while we wait for other items to be fixed and captains schedules/weather to align.