454 Merc Replacement Options (95 400 EC)

[Hoosier John]

Hi Everyone,
This is my first post, but have been enjoying other's threads since we purchased this boat earlier this spring. A 1995 SR 400 EC which we have thouroughly enjoyed all season around Saugatuck, MI. We just had the stbd engine pulled and looked at. The camshaft has one exhaust lobe about half gone. The other cylinders showed 150-155 psi on a warm engine. The machine shop (CD Engine Service in Hudsonville, MI) says the debris from the cam has damaged other parts and recommends $2300 of work/parts to complete the engine. As a side note, we went this route because we were told this was a NEW engine with 250 hours on it when we bought it. The shop tells us it was a rebuild, although not a complete rebuild as only some of the pistons were replaced.
My question is: Should I go ahead with the rebuild, or should I purchase another rebuilt engine, shipped in? If so, what should I do with the old engine? And should I replace it with the same 4bbl carb. engine or upgrade one side to fuel injection now, and hold off on the other side until it goes?
Specifics: I have been told the engine is "normal" rotation, thus the transmission handles counter-rotation. I doubt we will put more than 100 hours per year on her, all in Lake Michigan (although this boat was in Florida for a few years, previously). Since we bought as much boat as we could afford, there is not a lot of room for too much expense (probably rules out a new engine?). Engine hours indicate 1400 hrs each side (although the bad engine is supposed to only have around 250 hrs on it, no documentation found to confirm this yet).
Thanks in advance for any help or advise,

 

[johngus]

If its at a quality reputable shop,I would just have the engine you have rebuilt and put back in.seems like the least expensive way.The injected engines are nice but pricey

 

[rondds]

John
There's an outfit on ebay that sells reman'd long blocks. Check them out...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Rema...5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories#ht_10821wt_1165

I know nothing about them nor do I have any financial affiliation or interest in them, but I stumbled upon them when I had the heads off my stbd engine and the seem to have had a good presence on ebay with 100% positive feedback. They are reachable via telephone. I'd give them a call and I'm sure they could answer all of your questions.

Good Luck!
RON

 

[Air O'Nautical]

I have your boat with the standard engines also.
I have thought about being in your situation and priced different options.
Dropping in two diesels motors will run 60k soo.....not in the cards for me either.

I would (will someday) go with a new or rebuilt long block.
I am not against having my blocks reconditioned if I know they were OK.
Replace everything you can afford with new.
Everything else can be blasted primed and painted to look new.

Your goal at this point is to have a new re-manufactured engine.
As good as brand new!
Don't skimp now it will bite you later.
These are very big boats for gas power plants in the first place.
It needs to be 100% to last at all.

Good luck to you.

 

[Hoosier John]

JohnGus: I can only base the reputation of the shop where the engine is now on Tower Marine's recommendation. They were using two machine shops and quit using the other in favor of CD Engine Service. Giving them the benefit of the doubt, I have some reservations about my engine's history. But price-wise they are a strong contender.

Ron: Your ebay link for Promar Precision Engines in NJ shows that I could get a Long Block, delivered, for $2700 with a 2 year warranty.
Based on your ebay idea, I also found California Engines has an older Generation IV listed for $1750 (+shipping?) with a 5 year warranty. I am awaiting a return call to see about a Generation V engine and shipping cost.
Both vendors have 100% positive feedback, although Promar has about 3x more customer ratings.

Air O'Naughtical makes a good point in starting over with an engine that is 100% up to the job. I will contact CD Engines and see if their recommendations entails a complete rebuild.

I welcome anyone else's thoughts, too. Should I be concerned about losing another camshaft? Thanks for the helpful ideas.

 

[AnchorsAweigh]

The shop tells us it was a rebuild, although not a complete rebuild as only some of the pistons were replaced.
My question is: Should I go ahead with the rebuild, or should I purchase another rebuilt engine, shipped in? If so, what should I do with the old engine? And should I replace it with the same 4bbl carb. engine or upgrade one side to fuel injection now, and hold off on the other side until it goes?

Geesssh, I can't imagine why anyone would go to all the effort and costs of "partly" rebuilding a motor. If you're paying for boring and honing, machining heads and all the labor, than do it all and do it right. Typically when you buy a rebuild they want the core or there will be a price difference. I would also say that unless you're changing both power plants right away than I would stick to keeping them the same. All your bolt on items can be transferred without issue and they will look the same when your done. I just did one motor in my boat and had the options of upgrading but I decided not to. My guys did enhance things a bit by using different head gaskets and pistons just to get a higher compression, but in the end probably only bumped hp. up by 10 or 15. Another reason they are doing this around here now is that most gas sold at the marinas is Premium fuel and it works better with higher compression motors. I know my other motor is going to need it soon but should get a couple more years out of it yet.
I see you're in Michigan, have you tried Michigan Motorz? (on Ebay) I remember in the past that they seemed to have reasonable rates, and the choice is yours as to how much change or add on parts you want.
Good Luck!! ...and keep us posted.

 

[sbw1]

If you are sure about the quality of the local shop, I'd go that route and do a complete job probably including the alternator and any other bolt ons that may be suspect. I know of at least one low hour Jasper rebuild that did not last long and failed on the way to Michigan from Chicago. If you stay local you have a better chance of knowing what was actually done, instead of ending up with one new piston. That's a crazy way to fix something.

 

[rondds]

I'm not sure - you'd have to check - but I think Promar does not accept cracked blocks. Be sure that's the case with any outfit you are thinking of buying a long block from.

 

[chumbley]

I would question the statement "debris from the cam has damaged other parts and recommends $2300 of work/parts to complete the engine". Camshaft lobes don't break off (well, maybe high lobe racing cams, but that is not applicable here). They wear down. Microscopic little metal particles. They drain to the pan, get picked up by the pump, and captured in the filter. In my opinion, it is HIGHLY unlikely that a worn lobe (or even lots of worn lobes) would cause any other engine damage.

To back that up, about 35 years ago I worked as a mechanic in a Cadillac dealership. During that time, Cadillac introduced a new engine design, and for the first few years these engines had problems with premature camshaft failure. Not a few. We did several camshaft replacements a week for a few years. To my knowledge, there was never any other engine damage due to the worn lobes...

Now, that's not to say the engine doesn't need $2300 of additional work. But it isn't due to the cam failure. I would want more information on what these additional repairs are. If all else is OK, I'd probably put a camshaft and lifters in it and put it back in the water.

 

[Hoosier John]

Thanks for all the help guys. Here is what my current thoughts are.
At this point, I have serious doubts about the history of this engine. Only having one piston replaced previously, means they did only what was absolutely necessary to get by, and probably sold the boat at that point.
I can get a remanufactured matching Generation V, 4 bolt (heavy duty), marine long block delivered to Tower Marine for around $3100. Since I am already looking at $2300 from the local shop (CD engines), before even looking at the top end, on a questionable motor, I feel we should cut our losses and go with the reman. Plus the reman comes with a 5 yr warranty!
I will need to re-use my current tin (oil pan and timing cover - the valve covers are cast aluminum, so I believe they are included).
The $3100 covers shipping both ways. The current engine should be a good core since it does not have a cracked block - mainly the cam problem. Otherwise the price would be $1000 higher.
Has anyone had experience, good or bad, with California Engines? Our plans for the boat include only fresh water. Does anyone have a feeling about the Salt Water package they offer for an additional $125? Apparently it includes a coating inside the manifold and possibly more. Might this be of any help in fresh water at preventing corrosion in the long term, or just a waste of money. The guy at California Engines said it was unnecessary for fresh water, but he also told me the 4 bolt (heavy duty) engine was also unnecessary.
Thanks again,

 

[rondds]

John
Potentially dumb question - are these existing engines freshwater cooled (contain coolant)? If so the "saltwater package" is probably BS. If not, it's still BS if you're boating in freshwater and plan to sell someday only to a fresh water boater.

 

[Hoosier John]

Good point Ron. The boat is raw water cooled not fresh water cooled. Sorry for the confusion. Based on its current location in Lake Michigan, a long way from salt water, I'd say odds are in favor of it remaining a fresh (or non-salt) water boat even for the next owner(s). However, this boat was in Florida before we bought it in Nashville, so no guarantees.
So that's one vote for NO salt-water package.
Thanks Ron,

 

[Air O'Nautical]

Good point Ron. The boat is raw water cooled not fresh water cooled. Sorry for the confusion. Based on its current location in Lake Michigan, a long way from salt water, I'd say odds are in favor of it remaining a fresh (or non-salt) water boat even for the next owner(s). However, this boat was in Florida before we bought it in Nashville, so no guarantees.
So that's one vote for NO salt-water package.
Thanks Ron,

I didnt know they made any raw water cooled.
You dont have a heat exchanger?

 

[Hoosier John]

Air O'Naughtical,
I am 99% sure the engine uses only raw water to cool the entire engine (or, as Ron put it, no coolant reservoir). A heat exchanger exists only on the stbd engine to heat the hot water tank. I imagine you would see the closed fresh water cooling systems on most boats intended for salt water operation.
Went to the boat this weekend to do some bilge cleaning in and around the hole where the engine was. Used a putty knife to remove the thick grease, then a cleaner and a roll of paper towels to remove what was left under the engine. After several hours of cleaning, my heart is going to be broken when it starts fill with oil drippings again. At least some of the other parts of the bilge will be cleaner for a while.
Thanks all,
John

 

[Air O'Nautical]

Air O'Naughtical,
I am 99% sure the engine uses only raw water to cool the entire engine (or, as Ron put it, no coolant reservoir). A heat exchanger exists only on the stbd engine to heat the hot water tank. I imagine you would see the closed fresh water cooling systems on most boats intended for salt water operation.
Went to the boat this weekend to do some bilge cleaning in and around the hole where the engine was. Used a putty knife to remove the thick grease, then a cleaner and a roll of paper towels to remove what was left under the engine. After several hours of cleaning, my heart is going to be broken when it starts fill with oil drippings again. At least some of the other parts of the bilge will be cleaner for a while.
Thanks all,
John

Thanks,
I checked Sea Ray's site and fresh water cooling WAS an option.
I just looked at soo many before purchasing mine I assumed they were all fresh.
Good Luck,