440 EB Sea trial from new member

Discussion in 'Who's Who' started by gregarious, Nov 6, 2013.

  1. gregarious

    gregarious New Member

    19
    Nov 6, 2013
    Savannah
    440 EB 1996
    Cat 3116
    Bought a 96 440 EB last week with sea trial today. Impressions: steering seems slow at slow speeds, top speed with 350 hp original 3116 with 1100 hours seemed slow at 22 knots. Tachometers were erratic and probably low reading but stbd engine was 2950 rpm and port was 2600 but again, tachometers are very suspect. I was under the impression from previous posts that top speed was around 25. Cruising at 2400 rpm the speed was around 16 but there was serious tide and not able to do up/down runs. Props were 22X22 per surveyor. Comments?
     
  2. Summer Fun II

    Summer Fun II New Member

    Oct 8, 2008
    New York
    Looking again
    o
    Just one.... Welcome to CSR & Congrats on the new ride. :smt001
     
  3. HUMPH

    HUMPH Well-Known Member PLATINUM Sponsor

    Nov 4, 2009
    SF BAY AREA
    2003 410DA,
    2004 C14 Caribe
    CAT 3126TA's 350HP/
    50HP Honda
    Top speed won't be much different than you have experienced I believe. You can pump up the engines by 35HP very easy if you want to use the extra fuel. That is a big heavy boat for 3116's rated at 350HP (340PHP). I have the same engines basically and 2400RPM puts me at 20 knots. Welcome aboard!
     
  4. gregarious

    gregarious New Member

    19
    Nov 6, 2013
    Savannah
    440 EB 1996
    Cat 3116
    Yes I was expecting that speed. BTW, the bottom had just been pressure washed and the props were clean. Without accurate RPM's I don't know what the engines were doing but still I am concerned . The fuel tanks were full-ish and I don't know about the water. There were six of us aboard.
     
  5. fwebster

    fwebster Well-Known Member TECHNICAL Contributor PLATINUM Sponsor

    Oct 6, 2006
    Middle Tennessee ; Panama City Beach, FL
    1996 450DA
    3116 Caterpillars
    The de-rated 2003-up 350hp 3126 can safely be increased to ±385hp, but the 350 hp 3116 is maxed out at 350hp. It is what it is.

    Either way, it won't make much difference in performance because you only get the added benefit of the 35 additional hp at speeds you should never use anyway, i.e. above rated criuse of 2400rpm. At rated cruise, you will get some added hp, but if you follow Cat's hp and torque tables, maxing out the fuel delivery on a marine engine nets you, at cruise, something under 50% of the hp gain at wot. But it is a moot point on the 3116 because it is already at its peak output@ 350hp.

    On the subject of the tachs and rpm's, most of us with mid 90's to mid 2000's Sea Ray with the Teleflex tach system have found them to inaccurate and not dependable. A few of us have changed to Aetna digital tachs and in doing so have found that the factory tachs were off by a good bit. Until you can determine whether or not the engines on your boat are producing rated power at WOT, you really don't know what your eventual performance will be. That could be done with a hand held digital photo tach. At WOT, with the levers against the stops, the engines should turn 2800 rpm. If they do, then what you see is what you get. But if the WOT rpms are lower than 2800, then the bottom is dirty or the props need re-pitching. Even if the bottom had been pressure washed, the 440/450EB's tend to be very sensitive to bottom fouling, and a little slime remaining can cost you 100 rpms and a few kts.

    Good luck with it............
     
  6. gregarious

    gregarious New Member

    19
    Nov 6, 2013
    Savannah
    440 EB 1996
    Cat 3116
    Very good info. Yes the tachs seem suspect and my broker actually did a photo tach at low rpms at the dock and they were all over the place. I had asked for a Cat tech for this but not available at the time. I can get another sea trial with him on board and get accurate measurements. If I don't get to actual 2800 rpm and the props are right for that boat, can I assume engines are down on power? The hours are 1200 and it was mostly fresh water until last year. I was there for the pressure wash and hull survey and it seemed pretty clean, maybe a little pebbly from several layers of bottom paint. About what you'd expect from that year (1996). Certainly not smooth-ish.
     
  7. mjmason1

    mjmason1 New Member

    533
    Oct 19, 2013
    Fall River, MA
    1996 400 Sedan Bridge
    3116ta Cats
    We are in the process of purchasing a 400db. It has the 3116ta's with 850hrs. During our sea trial we couldn't get the stbd engine over 2500rpm's the port was 2700rpms. and we were cruising at 24kts. When we got back to port we pulled boat and found the running gear covered with white worms. After cleaning the running gear the next sea trial got 2800 rpms out of both and ran at 25kts. I would make sure you get 2800 rpms on both. If not find out why. Could be a sign of engine trouble, or just age and wear and tear. Good luck.
     
  8. HUMPH

    HUMPH Well-Known Member PLATINUM Sponsor

    Nov 4, 2009
    SF BAY AREA
    2003 410DA,
    2004 C14 Caribe
    CAT 3126TA's 350HP/
    50HP Honda
    Thanks for the clarification Frank. Several people have asked why I don't boost my HP to 385 but I don't see the benefit. It may cause me to want to go faster and burn more fuel. I love the efficiency of my boat just the way she is!
     
  9. tc410

    tc410 Member PLATINUM Sponsor

    700
    Oct 9, 2006
    Charlevoix, MI/Jupiter, FL
    2005 550DB
    MAN CRM-900
    If the bottom is clean and the props are true and you still don't make 2800, check the fuel filters next. But like the others here have mentioned, the first step is solving the accuracy of the tachs.....
     
  10. fwebster

    fwebster Well-Known Member TECHNICAL Contributor PLATINUM Sponsor

    Oct 6, 2006
    Middle Tennessee ; Panama City Beach, FL
    1996 450DA
    3116 Caterpillars

    A rough texture on the bottom can certainly affect speed/performance. I used Interlux Micron CSC for years. It is great bottom paint, but is viscous and dries quickly. Our dealer wanted to add SeaHawk paints to their offerings, I used SeaHawk on my previous boat, so they asked me to be their test boat. THe paint was donated by SeaHawk, so I said sure, why not. Well, I love SeaHawk. It dries slower and flows out better yielding a noticeably smoother surface. I picked up 1.5 kts by just changing paints. When you do your next bottom, either sand the bottom well (100 grit paper; you need to see 50% white) or soda blast it, then you might try SeaHawk ablative paint.

    As far as "assuming the engines are down on power"......? Very unlikely. One of the things I love about Cat engines is the simplicity of their unit injection fuel system. The pump does have adjustments, but it just delivers pressure. Injector timing is set by the very much like a valve is adjusted. All this means is that there isn't a lot to go wrong with the fuel system that will reduce power. Cat engine are extremely predictable and Cat gives you specs for broad testing as well as settings. For example, if there is a bad injector tip, you will see it is the way the engine starts cold and you usually see some smoke that is not normal.......these engines are as smoke free as newer common rail engines. Cat gives you a high idle setting which is stamped on the sticker on the valve cover. The high idle setting is the rpms the engine should run with no load applied. It is something like 3150 rpms on the 3116 (but don't hold me to it...its on the valve cover). A Cat mechanic uses the high idle setting as a part of his diagnostics for the engine. Generally, if the governor and engine overheads are correct, the engine should turn the high idle rpms when the throttles are pushed to the stops. Passing that test (should be done by the Cat mechanic as a part of your pre-purchase mechanical survey) pretty much eliminates any "down on power" concerns. If they do not turn high idle rpms, then the next step is to do a Blow-by Test, which is a proprietary test a Cat mechanic can do to measure combustion pressures in the crankcase. You will only see an engine with high cylinder or ring wear or loose liners fail the blow-by test. High readings also accompany "down on power" since compression will be low. Almost always, an engine that fails a blow-by test will exhibit smoke on cold starts or blue smoke when accelerated from a dead stop.

    If you think your engines are down on power, then the next step is to get a Cat mechanic on the boat to reset the overheads and check the governor settings and do the high idle test. However, your concerns are very typical for mid 90's EB or large DA since the boats nearly all came from the factory in an over propped condition. They were test run with almost no load on them, then when the owner loaded them with fuel, water, passengers and gear, they were over propped for the load.
     
  11. tc410

    tc410 Member PLATINUM Sponsor

    700
    Oct 9, 2006
    Charlevoix, MI/Jupiter, FL
    2005 550DB
    MAN CRM-900
    As usual, Frank offers good advice. But before I made that call to CAT and dropped +/- $2,000 on top end adjustments, I think my next step would be to check the $12 fuel filters...
     
  12. fwebster

    fwebster Well-Known Member TECHNICAL Contributor PLATINUM Sponsor

    Oct 6, 2006
    Middle Tennessee ; Panama City Beach, FL
    1996 450DA
    3116 Caterpillars
    Resetting the overheads on a 3116 is a 6-7 hour job and should cost around $1000. Filters are a good thought, however, I don't think that is an issue here. He ran the boat for an extended period trying to make WOT rpm's. Had the filters been clogged, the rpms would have fluctuated then dropped to whatever amount of fuel passed the filters. But......I am not there an am only reacting to posts the OP made. Hopefully, he has enough information to realize that performance questions involving much more than bottom condition, props and loading are best left to a pre-purchase mechanical survey where the cause, cost and responsibility for writing the check become the responsibility of others.
     
  13. gregarious

    gregarious New Member

    19
    Nov 6, 2013
    Savannah
    440 EB 1996
    Cat 3116
    I didn't see any smoke but with underwater exhausts, would you see it anyway? If the props are factory, is there a site which lists the original size and pitch? We are discussing a re-seatrial with a CAT tech aboard next week at which time we will also have oil analyses back.
     
  14. fwebster

    fwebster Well-Known Member TECHNICAL Contributor PLATINUM Sponsor

    Oct 6, 2006
    Middle Tennessee ; Panama City Beach, FL
    1996 450DA
    3116 Caterpillars
    Sea Ray has a prop chart on searay.com/owners resources/parts help, but the props used on t he larger boats are usually not listed. There is also a parts list for most models at that same location. There isn't one for the '96 440EB, but the one for the '95 shows either a 21 x 21 x 1.75 or a 22 x 22 x 1.75, depending upon engine option. If your has 22 x 22's and the numbers have not been re-stamped, then, as I said earlier, I suspect you have standard OEM props for a 350 hp 3116 engine package and the boat is slightly over propped.
     
  15. gregarious

    gregarious New Member

    19
    Nov 6, 2013
    Savannah
    440 EB 1996
    Cat 3116
    A new sea trial was done with a photo tach. WOT the port was 2600 and stbd was 2678 with speeds upwind 21.2 and downwind 24.7. (It was very windy yesterday although some of that was current).
     

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