410DA -Seawater backs up thru deck drain causing engine rust

H

Hail Mary

New Member
Jun 18, 2007
16
Long Island, NY
Boat Info
boatless
Engines
boatless
Good Afternoon,

I own a 2001 410DA with 3126 Cats. I have had some Rusting issues on the rear starboard side of the starboard engine and the rear portion of my generator. After much work and expensive replacment parts, I found that sea water was backing up through the deck drain located beneath the Genny's deck hatch a starbord of the large engine hatch. The sea water backs into the "through hull" fitting and floods the engine, only when I transition from clutch forward to up on plane. During this transition the Through Hull fitting is submerged, sea water shoots out of the deck drain and flushes into the engine compartment onto the Genny and Starboard engine. This can only be discovered or observed if you go up onto plane while the genny hatch is off and you can see the drain. Can any 410DA owners please tell me if you have a Genny? Has your boat been kept in Salt Water? If yes, are you experiencing rust on the back side of your Genny and starborard engine? Have you heard of anyone else experiencing this sea water reflux issue?

There is another 410DA on my dock and he's definitely having the same issue.

Thank you for your time.
Best,
Sean
Hail Mary
Huntington, NY
 
Sean-

Welcome to the forum! :smt038

Thanks for the heads up. I will definitely check this. I always have a small amount of water in the bilge on the high side of the starboard stringer in between the starboard engine and genny. I have twice pulled the cover plates for the starboard engine seawater pump and genny seawater pump thinking they were leaking because I always notice the water after I run the boat. It's just enough water to lay alongside the stringer, and occassionaly (probably when I bring her up on plane) it runs through the aft drain hole in the stringer and into the aft bilge area where the two bilge pumps are. Although I am in freshwater, I am noticing a small amount of surface rust accumulating on my starboard aft engine mount. I was just thinking that I need to knock it off with a wire brush and spray a little rust-proof primer on it.

Any thoughts on how to fix this issue? I'll have to investigate more closely Thursday when I am back at the boat.

If you solved this, I owe you a six pack of Land Shark next time you are in Michigan! Way to make friends with your first post!!
 
I am having a hard time picturing this, but I guess if you have allot if weight aft and high bow rise, the waterline may be briefly above the deck scupper.

If that is the case, how about the genny exhaust? Would the anti-siphon loop also be below water line and exposed to water intrusion?

Potential fix - in-line check valve like the one used in bilge pump lines?
 
Ditto!!!

If I'm getting the problem correctly, water is entering the engine room from a leaking drain hose that is from the engine room hatch (typically no siphon break), or are we talking about the common grey water discharge pipe hose connection's siphon break?

The rest of the water that hits the cockpit runs off through the lazarret scuppers or out the companion way door.

If water is entering through the exhaust bypass into the bilge ... we've got a serious issue.

Just curious have you checked the rubber elbow for the exhaust going to the underwater through hull port? These can split or the clamps can fail.

At one time I had a leak in the airconditioner discharge line and it made quite a leak that was tough to find because it ran behind the fuel tank.
 
Thanks for you prompt replies,
In response to "fwebster" - Yes, the water enters through the hatch lip drain thru-hull. Another interesting point is that the hatch lip is compromised by an aluminum support beam which supports both the engine room hatch and the Genny acess hatch. Where this Aluminum beam meets the "lip drain", it compromises the lip and was sealed with a caulking by the manufacturer. I also believe that sea water and time have compromised the caulking which provides and easier path for the seawater into the engine room. The first sign of this issue would be rust on the black metal support of the starboard engine coolant overflow container. It sits very near the intersection of the aluminum support beam and the lip drain. Please have a look and let me know what you find.

In response to TC410 - Thanks for you kind support. I'm very interested in results of your next trip "up to Plane" and if this issues occurs on more 410's. So far I have had to cut a small hole in the deck to remove and replace the Genny. I also had HO Penn (local Cat Dealer) pull apart the starboard engine to remove, replace or scrap & repaint all rusted parts. I figure I'm near $20k deep so far. HO Penn suggested that a sea water backup in that drain was the issue so after all the work was done, I took her up on plane and sure enough...sea water spout. At this time I'm treating this as a potential manufacturers defect and therefore don't want to make alterations until the necessary professionals evaluate the problem. Meantime I'm using an 1 1/2" sea land drain plug to prevent sea water overflowing the drain and ruining my fresh repairs. Ultimately a one way check valve in the drain line appears to be the best solution. I will keep you posted on my next test results, but please let me know if you discover the same issues?

Thanks Again,
Sean
 
response to Asureyez

This is not a leaky or faulty hose. When coming up on plane the Through Hull (scupper?) for the deck drain becomes submerged and water forces its way back up the drain hose. The water then exits the deck drain and over flows the Lip which is meant to cath the deck water. The overflow hits the rear portion of Starboard engine and the Genny.

To repeat there is no seawater leaking into the engine room from leaky hoses, clamps or valves. This is a Sea Water backing up a through hull fitting.

What do you think? I'd sure like to know if others out there are experiencing the same issue. If you have a Genny, remove the Genny hatch cover and bring the boat up on plane. If water back up out of the deck drain. We all have an issue.

Thanks Again for all your support.
 
Sean:

Welcome to the best Sea Ray site out there.... :thumbsup:

This is my first season with my 410DA. However, I just spent a few hours in my ER this evening changing Fuel filters and I didn't notice any sea water in the bilge or rust in the areas you are talking about, but then again, I wasn't looking specifically as my concentration was on the fuel filter project.

Sea Gull, on this site, was the original owner, and maybe he can say if he had the issue during his ownership.

I will certainly look closer next time I am in the ER.....tomorrow night most likely.

Thanks for the heads up and good luck. Keep us posted on your outcome.
 
I had (have) rust issues in the areas Hail Mary has. It was diagnosed (misdiagnosed) as a leaking raw water pump which I had replaced...$$$$$..I never got after the rust (I know ...my bad) and assumed it was residual rust. Now I have a mission for the upcoming weekend.....

Too bad all we 410 owners can't "conference call" to hash this potential problem out!!! Or can we???? Any ideas??

Hail Mary, what did you have to have done that cost $20 large??
all of a sudden I am getting nervous :smt043
 
If I have the time when I get home from work tonight, I am planning to take a quick ride. My intention was to check for any fuel leaks from last nights (so far) successfull fuel filter change. I guess the purpose of the quick juant will now be two fold. If I can find crew, I will lift the starboard hatch and check for incoming water while getting on plane.

I will also be checking the Port Engine area for water coming in. I do know that I have some rusting on the outboard aft sections of the port main engine. Maybe there is a relationship between the two!... :smt017

One question to Hail Mary....do you notice any difference if you get on plane with the tabs down as opposed to the tabs up?

I'll report my findings.....
 
In the years that I owned my (Dominic's) 2003 410DA I did not see this problem. There was rust on the port outboard engine as Dominic points out, but I always associated that with salty mist coming in through the hull side air intakes. I can't remember anymore where the port side hatch lip drains to, but you all should look at both sides of the boat for this issue.

If sea water is backing up through these drains I would guess that the addition of check valves would solve the problem.
 
Thanks Again for all the replies to this issue. The solution appears to be check valve installation.

I'm very interested to know how many 410DA owners experience the same issue. If yes, sooner or later we'll all be in the same boat. (sorry couldn't help the pun).

I will see if the Trim Tab position alters the outcome and report back.

As for $20k it breaks down to $10k for new 7.4 Westbeke Genny + $8k for enging repair and replacement + $1k to cut and repair the deck to get the Genny out + $1k of Misc and beer to ease the pain.

Interesting to note that in the 2001 410DA owners manual they have a diagram of the through hull fittings. On the Starboard side the diagram shows two small fittings for the cockpit ice bucket and a seperate fitting for the deck drain. In reality, the boat has one larger throu hole fitting for both the ice bucket and deck drain. Why the change to one fitting? Was that change tested before production? Is that change to one larger fitting without a check vavle the root cause of this issue? The plot thickens.

Thanks Again!
 
I don't know of any rust issue with mine. I will do the test, if for no good reason but for the fun of it. :grin: Should have answers after weekend.
 
I got hung up and didn't get a chance to go for run this evening. I probably won't be able to get off the dock till Friday AM. I am leaving for a weekend on the boat in Atlantic City. I'll try and look then during the run.

Is this the drain you are talking about? If so, does anyone know what size the hose is? As a precaution, I'll just head over to Home Depot to get a check valve for now....
 

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Another 2001 410da on my dock went out last night to test for sea water back up. He sucessfully recreated sea water back up while going up on plane and turning slightly to port. The sea water was shooting out of the drain at least one foot into the air. Come to think of it, I was turning slightly to port when I witnessed the sea water back up. On you next voyage please remove your genny deck hatch to test for sea water back up while going up on plane turning slightly to port and advise on results. Thank you again for all you assistance.

Best,
Sean
 
Sean:


Turning to PORT?????. Isn't the thru hole you're talking about on the starboard side. Turning to port would bring the starboard side higher out of the water....wouldn't it??? :smt017

Did you see my pic on page 1 of this thread....is that the hose?
 
Yes, sea water back up experienced on starboard side drain for some odd reason slight turn to port appears easiest way to recreate sea water overflow. I will look at pics when I return to home base this pm.


Best


Sean
 
Yes the picture on page 1 of this thread is the hose which leads to the starboard deck drain. The opening of the deck drain is 1 1/2" so my "guess" is the hose is the same diameter.
 
Upon reflection I am not sure that a check valve would work in this case. There needs to be some amount of hydraulic pressure to open the flap in the check valve and there looks like very little vertical distance between the scupper and the through hull discharge.

Can't wait to read about the outcome.
 
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