Hacman
New Member
I am currently looking to purchase a 2000 410 Express w/ 3126 Cat's. 250 hours on engines. What should I be concerned about??
Thanks in advance!!
Thanks in advance!!
410 Express - Advice
- Thread starter Hacman
- Start date
- Oct 6, 2006
- 12,155
- Boat Info
- 1996 450DA
- Engines
- 3116 Caterpillars
You should make any contract contingent on results of a hull survey and an engine survey satisfactory to you.
Of particular concern on the hull survey would be sealing or bedding of every deck fitting or hole put in the deck where something is mounted with screws or drilled. These boats have a cored deck and there are lots of screw holes and cutouts where stanchions, windlass, windshield, deck switches, spotlight, hand rails etc. are mounted. Your surveyor should be qualified to take moisture readings on the deck......the hull is not cored, I don't believe.
The engine survey should be done by a servicing Caterpillar dealer who has access to the engines' service/warranty history via the Cat data base. These engines are subject to 2 problems that Caterpillar experienced. One is soft valves where the valve heads tend to separate from the valve stem. This is usually a terminal event for an engine, so it is important to run down the serial numbers and see if yours have the TRW valves. It is not at all likely that 2000 model engines will still have the bad valves in them in 2008...the failures usually came at 100 to 125 hours and usually in the first 18 months of engine life. The other potential issue is the block castings. Caterpillar got a bad batch of engine blocks from a foundry in France and the cast iron was too soft which caused premature wear. Caterpillar stopped warrantying this issue in about 2004 so it is important that your Cat technician determine if you have blocks with the casting number beginning with "FAPS" , which are the French blocks. If you do, the serial numbers must be run down to determine if your blocks are soft or not. If they are, pass on the boat. Next, Caterpillar has a proprietary test to aid in determining engine health. You should request "blow-by tests" on both engines which is a test that measures how much crankcase pressure is escaping the combustion chamber and passing by the piston rings.......very much the equivalent of a compression test on a gas motor. This is a non-invasive test and only takes a few minutes. Finally, have the engine survey technician pull oil samples from both engines and the generator as well as the transmissions, and get a coolant sample as well then have them all analyzed by a reputable lab.....Caterpillar sells tests kits for about $20 ea you mail in to their lab, so its not that expensive to sample everything.
Don't let the above scare you....it is all just part of the due diligence anyone should do on a diesel boat. The 410EC is a great boat and the Caterpillar engines are quiet, clean, smoke free and very efficient. You will love them...........
Of particular concern on the hull survey would be sealing or bedding of every deck fitting or hole put in the deck where something is mounted with screws or drilled. These boats have a cored deck and there are lots of screw holes and cutouts where stanchions, windlass, windshield, deck switches, spotlight, hand rails etc. are mounted. Your surveyor should be qualified to take moisture readings on the deck......the hull is not cored, I don't believe.
The engine survey should be done by a servicing Caterpillar dealer who has access to the engines' service/warranty history via the Cat data base. These engines are subject to 2 problems that Caterpillar experienced. One is soft valves where the valve heads tend to separate from the valve stem. This is usually a terminal event for an engine, so it is important to run down the serial numbers and see if yours have the TRW valves. It is not at all likely that 2000 model engines will still have the bad valves in them in 2008...the failures usually came at 100 to 125 hours and usually in the first 18 months of engine life. The other potential issue is the block castings. Caterpillar got a bad batch of engine blocks from a foundry in France and the cast iron was too soft which caused premature wear. Caterpillar stopped warrantying this issue in about 2004 so it is important that your Cat technician determine if you have blocks with the casting number beginning with "FAPS" , which are the French blocks. If you do, the serial numbers must be run down to determine if your blocks are soft or not. If they are, pass on the boat. Next, Caterpillar has a proprietary test to aid in determining engine health. You should request "blow-by tests" on both engines which is a test that measures how much crankcase pressure is escaping the combustion chamber and passing by the piston rings.......very much the equivalent of a compression test on a gas motor. This is a non-invasive test and only takes a few minutes. Finally, have the engine survey technician pull oil samples from both engines and the generator as well as the transmissions, and get a coolant sample as well then have them all analyzed by a reputable lab.....Caterpillar sells tests kits for about $20 ea you mail in to their lab, so its not that expensive to sample everything.
Don't let the above scare you....it is all just part of the due diligence anyone should do on a diesel boat. The 410EC is a great boat and the Caterpillar engines are quiet, clean, smoke free and very efficient. You will love them...........
Frank is right about the issues surrounding deck fittings. When we traded our 2000 410 in 2005 the surveyer found some delamination around the fishing rod holders. Sea Ray repaired the area under warranty. We also found a larger delamination around the head hatch on the foredeck during an insurance survey. Again, Sea Ray took care of the issue. Our 410 had gassers ( think mediocore performance and poor fuel economy) so I can't comment on the engines other than to say the boat needs diesel power. The hull bottom is not cored. I can't remember whether the sides were or not. I hated the helm seat, I must have had the pedestal apart half a dozen times to keep it working. Maybe that's because I'm a fat a$$. I never could get comfortable on the salon seating. It seemed the seat back angle was odd or not high enough or something. Check out the sliding door that closes off the STBD cabin (the one with the bunkbeds). It's heavy and comes off the track without much effort. We had ours repaired a couple of times under warranty and finally just quit using it. If you overnight on the boat you'll likely get rid of the foam mattress that came stock on the 2000 and get one custom made. I know we did.
We especially liked the straight drives, the real door to the forward stateroom, the double entry into and the size of the head, the galley with full size reefer(we replaced the Norcold with a Nova Kool) and the cockpit layout. Again, the cockpit seating was too straight backed to provide real comfortable seating. It also seemed the seat bottoms could have been wider to provide more support.
I don't believe the 2000 came with a hardtop but if you can find one with a hardtop I'd consider it. The Seattle dealer had a 2002 w/ a hardtop and diesels and we'd probably still have that boat if we could have reached an agreement on the numbers. He offered way too little for ours w/o discounting his new boat. We've owned nothing but Sea Rays for years but the numbers just didn't work for us.
We especially liked the straight drives, the real door to the forward stateroom, the double entry into and the size of the head, the galley with full size reefer(we replaced the Norcold with a Nova Kool) and the cockpit layout. Again, the cockpit seating was too straight backed to provide real comfortable seating. It also seemed the seat bottoms could have been wider to provide more support.
I don't believe the 2000 came with a hardtop but if you can find one with a hardtop I'd consider it. The Seattle dealer had a 2002 w/ a hardtop and diesels and we'd probably still have that boat if we could have reached an agreement on the numbers. He offered way too little for ours w/o discounting his new boat. We've owned nothing but Sea Rays for years but the numbers just didn't work for us.
Petep
Member
Great Boat, I had an '02 410EC that boat's a real runner! You are really going to enjoy the performance of that boat. You won't regret that step up from a gas 340 to a diesel 410EC. I could go on and on about what to look for but Frank W's post above says it all (as usual).
Robski97
Well-Known Member
I agree with Pete and Frank. Buddy has petes old boat ( 02 410 ) he loves the boat to death and it does run like hell . I cant catch em.
Rob
Rob
Hacman
New Member
Wow thanks for all the advice. I was planning on having everything checked out but this is real good specific info. I am looking at boat Friday, so we will see.
Thanks again.
Thanks again.
geriksen
New Member
Frank's advice is right on the money. The only thing I might add is that we pulled out three of those in a row a couple of years ago. All three of them had tiny blisters from bow to stern. We fixed all three of them and epoxied the bottoms and they are now fine. We are in warm, fresh water so blistering is more of a problem than it is in most areas. Never the less I would take a good look at the bottom when you have it hauled.
Also, I had 3176's in a 500DA and I found the slow accelleration to be really annoying. They made lots of power on the top end and did not smoke at all but it took forever for the boost to come on. I don't know if the 3126 is like that too but you might want to run the boat before you spend a bunch of money on survey's etc.
Great boat otherwise.
Good luck!
Also, I had 3176's in a 500DA and I found the slow accelleration to be really annoying. They made lots of power on the top end and did not smoke at all but it took forever for the boost to come on. I don't know if the 3126 is like that too but you might want to run the boat before you spend a bunch of money on survey's etc.
Great boat otherwise.
Good luck!
- Oct 6, 2006
- 12,155
- Boat Info
- 1996 450DA
- Engines
- 3116 Caterpillars
The 3126's will have a little throttle/turbo lag, but if you understand diesel principles and what is going on mechanically, it is very manageable.......unless you are coming from a 7.4L gas boat and are a speed freak. This is a larger boat and, in my opinion, you don't need to be accelerating a 410 any faster then 3126's will get you up on the water anyway.
Honestly, your bigger challenge will be in learning to think ahead of the boat and getting accustomed to it's response around the dock or in tight quarters. When you put the 3126's in gear, the stern squats and you go. Think ahead so you know where you are headed because the boat is going there right now when you put it in gear. Passengers need to be either seated or holding on.......and, nobody needs to be on the swim platform when you are maneuvering or you may have to go back and pick them up.
Think of a 410EC as a sports car that floats......for a big boat they are nimble and will absolutely haul a$$.
Honestly, your bigger challenge will be in learning to think ahead of the boat and getting accustomed to it's response around the dock or in tight quarters. When you put the 3126's in gear, the stern squats and you go. Think ahead so you know where you are headed because the boat is going there right now when you put it in gear. Passengers need to be either seated or holding on.......and, nobody needs to be on the swim platform when you are maneuvering or you may have to go back and pick them up.
Think of a 410EC as a sports car that floats......for a big boat they are nimble and will absolutely haul a$$.
geriksen
New Member
Maybe I should clarify.....
Along with all the other issues the 31 series Cats had mine had a terrible performance curve. Between 1000rpm and 1500rpm there was literally no throttle repsonse at all. You would ease the throttles up and wonder if they became disonnected. CAT actually says that the idle to WOT on that 3176 takes 90 seconds. That is a minute and a half! After a while they would finally creep up to 1500 and then all of a sudden the boat would take off like a bullet (with no throttle input at all). You never knew quite when this was going to happen. There is supposedy and update that reduces this time to 60 sec for about $5,000 per engine but most of the folks I talked to that did it saw no difference. I fixed it by selling the boat. My 3208's didn't do that and my 4308's don't do that.
That is always how that boat was going to run. Both engines turned 2450rpm and the boat would top out around 32mph so it was propped correctly. How a product like that got tested and released to the public amazes me.
Maybe the 3126 is not as bad. Never the less, my point is that the prospective buyer should run the boat and see if he likes the way it performs early in the process. I had pretty much already committed to buy that 500 before I ran it and found that giant bog. I begrudgingly bought it anyway because it was a very clean boat but I never did like running a boat that had a mind of it's own.
It's still better than a gasser that size though for sure. And Frank describes the dockside handling perfectly. Docking in the wind was a breeze with all that tourque at idle. Just putting the boat in gear would drop the transom a good four inches.
Since you are up north and it is winter, can you sea trail the boat or is your lake frozen?
Along with all the other issues the 31 series Cats had mine had a terrible performance curve. Between 1000rpm and 1500rpm there was literally no throttle repsonse at all. You would ease the throttles up and wonder if they became disonnected. CAT actually says that the idle to WOT on that 3176 takes 90 seconds. That is a minute and a half! After a while they would finally creep up to 1500 and then all of a sudden the boat would take off like a bullet (with no throttle input at all). You never knew quite when this was going to happen. There is supposedy and update that reduces this time to 60 sec for about $5,000 per engine but most of the folks I talked to that did it saw no difference. I fixed it by selling the boat. My 3208's didn't do that and my 4308's don't do that.
That is always how that boat was going to run. Both engines turned 2450rpm and the boat would top out around 32mph so it was propped correctly. How a product like that got tested and released to the public amazes me.
Maybe the 3126 is not as bad. Never the less, my point is that the prospective buyer should run the boat and see if he likes the way it performs early in the process. I had pretty much already committed to buy that 500 before I ran it and found that giant bog. I begrudgingly bought it anyway because it was a very clean boat but I never did like running a boat that had a mind of it's own.
It's still better than a gasser that size though for sure. And Frank describes the dockside handling perfectly. Docking in the wind was a breeze with all that tourque at idle. Just putting the boat in gear would drop the transom a good four inches.
Since you are up north and it is winter, can you sea trail the boat or is your lake frozen?
Hacman
New Member
keep it coming. This is very helpful. Did the "soft Block" issue include both the 350hp and the 420hp??
Looked at boat today and it seems to be in very good condition. very clean and no signs of blisters. The port engine had it's block replaced last year due to a tiny hole in which coolant was leaking out. Waitning on serial numbers so I can check their history.
Looked at boat today and it seems to be in very good condition. very clean and no signs of blisters. The port engine had it's block replaced last year due to a tiny hole in which coolant was leaking out. Waitning on serial numbers so I can check their history.
sbw1
Well-Known Member
- Oct 10, 2006
- 8,187
- Boat Info
- This is listed in my signature
- Engines
- This is listed in my signature
You might ask to see the SOS fluid analysis reports on the cooling system and oil analysis too. Holes suggest the possibility of corrosion due to maintenance neglect.
- Oct 6, 2006
- 12,155
- Boat Info
- 1996 450DA
- Engines
- 3116 Caterpillars
If the engines have the FAPS casting number, they are subject to the soft block issue. Caterpillar has never been very forthcoming to customers about this problem. The servicing dealer who does your survey does, however, have access to the casting numbers and the serial numbers involved.
From your standpoint, it is helpful that an engine was replaced since you know Caterpillar was involved and there is a record on these engines. Pin holes in cast iron parts does occasionally happen, but it is rare. Caterpillar engines have Cat ELC coolant in them so a corroded engine block is not likely since this is a 6 year coolant. As I suggested earlier, a fluid analysis on the antifreeze is under $20 and it will tell you if the coolant needs to be replaced and give you an idea about corrosion.
From your standpoint, it is helpful that an engine was replaced since you know Caterpillar was involved and there is a record on these engines. Pin holes in cast iron parts does occasionally happen, but it is rare. Caterpillar engines have Cat ELC coolant in them so a corroded engine block is not likely since this is a 6 year coolant. As I suggested earlier, a fluid analysis on the antifreeze is under $20 and it will tell you if the coolant needs to be replaced and give you an idea about corrosion.
NVJACKL
New Member
As the proud owner of a 2001 410 Express, I can tell you that it is one great boat. Our previous SeaRay was a '95 330 Dancer. Our boat has the Cummins and they have been good to me! I will not get into the Cat/Cummins, Ford/Chevy discussion anymore. If you end up with a 410 I think you will smile every time you leave the marina, I certainly Do!
Hacman
New Member
Thanks everyone for all your thoughts. This current deal is dead. Back to the drawing board.
expressman
New Member
Hacman, Did you ever buy the 410? I'm selling my 2001 and it's as clean and loaded as they come. 450 cumming as well
