2000 Sea Ray Sundeck 210 HELP!

Discussion in 'Sport Boats' started by boater2018, Feb 26, 2018.

  1. scoflaw

    scoflaw Well-Known Member SILVER Sponsor

    Aug 10, 2011
    cape cod mass
    1999 Powerquest legend 260 sx
    502 mpi Bravo 1
    What drive and gear ratio is it ? You talk about trimmed all the way down, you need it to be trimmed up.

    Get the drive ratio, which 19 prop, what rpm can you hit, trimming up, before the gps speed starts to drop off.
     
  2. boater2018

    boater2018 New Member

    20
    Feb 26, 2018
    2000 Sea Ray 210 Sundeck
    Mercruiser 5.0 EFI
    It is a 1.62:1 drive ratio, original SS 14x19 vengeance prop, start with the motor trimmed down all the way. I don’t have the max rpm and won’t be able to run the boat until I feel we’re past the freezing temps. I know I had ran it up around 42, maybe 4300 rpms (I believe from memory) and was clocked at 33-34 mph. On all the other boats I have driven, the speed usually somewhat coincides with the rpms. I haven’t tried trimming it up once I hit plane and more throttle to see how much the speed may increase, but will water test more when time and weather permits. It just seems I should have a good bit more hole shot and should be more around 40 mph running 4300 rpms even without trimming up. It felt that I pretty much had the throttle maxed, but I can’t remember for sure. I’ll have to test farther in the water
     
  3. Lazy Daze

    Lazy Daze Well-Known Member TECHNICAL Contributor GOLD Sponsor

    Apr 21, 2009
    PA
    Various
    Various
    Wait... you were trimmed all the way down? I talked about trimming up way back in post #2, but since you didn't say you weren't trimming up, I assumed you were.

    SO... Ugh... 20-some odd posts and some time later we're back to square one. Don't do ANYTHING else until you trim up and let's not make any other "possible fix" guesses until then as it's pointless without having all the facts. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
  4. boater2018

    boater2018 New Member

    20
    Feb 26, 2018
    2000 Sea Ray 210 Sundeck
    Mercruiser 5.0 EFI
    Yes....as mentioned before, I have it trimmed all the way down on take-off....I do realize that it needs to be trimmed up once on a plane to achieve a true top speed, but it should be trimmed all the way down on take-off to get to full plane as quickly as possible, which is the issue. It has felt very slow on take-off getting to plane trimmed all the way down.

    Again, thank you guys for the help....this boat is new to me, and came with some issues that needed to be worked out, so I am trying to address some of the things that “could be” causing slow hole shot before hitting the lake so that I get a good water trial the first time out this year. At least I’ll know that I’ve done what I can and not missed the more obvious possibilities. It sounds like I’m headed in the right direction, so I’ll finish replacing plug wires, have the timing checked out to verify it’s advancing correctly, I plan to check the injectors and be sure they’re good and clean, and replace the fuel water separator....then do a trial run once we get past the cold weather and see how it’s doing. Hopefully it will be good, but I will post either way once I’m able to water test.
     
  5. Lazy Daze

    Lazy Daze Well-Known Member TECHNICAL Contributor GOLD Sponsor

    Apr 21, 2009
    PA
    Various
    Various
    But the thing is, without knowing it's true top speed and max RPM, we don't know the whole story. Those critical pieces of info are the "facts" that help figure out what is going on. In other words, if you can reach a normal top speed and can reach 4,800-ish RPMs (with a light load) then there is nothing wrong with the engine or the drivetrain. So far in this thread, we've been under the impression that you couldn't get max RPM's out of it. We've got to have that info to be able to help - which is what we are all trying to do.

    Now, you say the boat is slow to plane. But here's the other thing, is there something wrong where it is slower to plane than normal, or is it just slower to plane than what you are used to? Since the boat is new to you, that creates another issue as there is no basis for comparison. The only thing I can tell you is what I told you early on - that that model is stern heavy and does take longer to plane (without a B3 or tabs) than the "normal" bowrider. It's not immensely longer than normal with a light load, but once people are in the boat and, especially if they are sitting in the back, it's a noticeable difference.
     
  6. boater2018

    boater2018 New Member

    20
    Feb 26, 2018
    2000 Sea Ray 210 Sundeck
    Mercruiser 5.0 EFI
    Thank you, that is very true as it is new to me. I appreciate informing me that it is a noticeable difference with a load. That is one thing I didn't know about that model is how much the difference would be between it and the bowrider model. The 210 BR I'm used to also has a 350 instead of a 305, but will pull up a skier with a loaded boat. I would have thought mine, even with a 305, would do the same, but maybe not. We did have a load in it the last time out and I know you always lose hole shot in any boat once loaded, it just seemed very slow....seemed too slow to pull a skier up with 5 adults, 1-7 yr old and 2 toddlers, but it very well may be the boat model just being slower than the normal "bowrider", much slower under load than I expected. I'll test farther in the water when I can get there, probably be in April sometime and try to determine the definite max rpms. Thank you once again....I'm definitely learning more about the model of the boat than I knew from you guys' comments and help. I tried to research the performance of this boat model, just have had no luck in finding much to go by from actual owners.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  7. scoflaw

    scoflaw Well-Known Member SILVER Sponsor

    Aug 10, 2011
    cape cod mass
    1999 Powerquest legend 260 sx
    502 mpi Bravo 1
    Did some research on those heads. They're a 64cc vortec head. off a 1997 350 ci. engine
    That 94 block originally had non vortec 58cc heads.

    So part of your performance problem is you have the wrong heads on your motor, and your giving up compression with the larger volume heads. A vortec headed engine's cranking compression should be in the 180 range.
     
  8. GoFastr

    GoFastr Cool Runnings GOLD Sponsor

    143
    Jan 20, 2016
    Cayman Islands
    2003 Sea Ray 270 SunDeck MX 6.2L MPI w/Bravo III
    Tow: 2012 Ford F150 Raptor SVT
    Mercruiser MX 6.2L MPI w/Bravo III
    The 210 SD is a nice fun boat. I swapped around props and changed plugs, cap, wires, coil, etc including paying the dealer to read codes and check timing too chasing the elusive 4800-5000 rpm setting. NADA, I gave up and just figured with 500 hours on my engine it was just old but pretty reliable so I just lived with its performance as is and enjoyed the hell out of it.

    The tag in my 1999 210 SD says 10 persons or 1600 lbs. All of the males in my family are over 6' tall and only one may be under 200 lbs. I tend to call it a full load with 7 persons on board and realize that performance will be affected with that kind of load. If we want to do serious sking or tubing we offload 3 or 4 onto the beach or to other boats for awhile and switch and swap as needed.

    That's kind of the reason I eventually moved up to the 270 SD with B3 drive as it doesn't seem to mind 10+ people on board.
     
  9. boater2018

    boater2018 New Member

    20
    Feb 26, 2018
    2000 Sea Ray 210 Sundeck
    Mercruiser 5.0 EFI
    I am finding conflicting numbers on the heads. When I search the numbers, every site except for 1 says "12558059 – 1997 305, Vortec, truck, 1.84/1.5 valves"....definitely truck and not marine. The 1 site that says they are 350 heads also says they have a 64cc combustion chamber, however, the many other sites that list them as 305 heads do not specify the size of the chamber. I did find 1 post on a iboats where a guy was considering taking heads from his 350 truck and putting them on his 305 mercruiser to attempt to increase horsepower....this was stated in that thread

    "The 5.0L also came with vortec heads 12558059 but they are different totally than the "real" ones for a 5.7L. Similar but different. Combustion chamber is smaller and not heart shaped for starters, runners are slightly different as well.
    These are the heads you get from GM when you buy a 5.0L in a truck.
    And they are the correct size for a 5.0L, 58cc"

    Also found this site that verifies the 58cc chamber http://www.aamidwest.com/enginequest/cylinder-heads/chevrolet-350/

    Also found this which is the Sierra replacement part number for the OEM heads that I have. It lists 12558059 as a head casting number http://www.marineengineparts.com/sierra-marine-18-4501-cylinder-head-assembly.html

    So...that brings another question...I have been told by multiple sources and seen this on the net while doing research also, but I believe the blocks are the same pre-vortec and the only difference is the heads. If this is true, and the heads are as they seem to be (305 vortec heads) shouldn't they be ok to run on my boat? I only run in freshwater and the engine seems to run very good, so I would think surely it's just as well to use them since it would be a very expensive job to replace them. And it sounds as though my boat performs similarly to others with the same model.

    I don't have to have a speed demon boat, but I do want to feel it's safe for my family and people we want to take out on the lake. Thank you again
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  10. Lazy Daze

    Lazy Daze Well-Known Member TECHNICAL Contributor GOLD Sponsor

    Apr 21, 2009
    PA
    Various
    Various
    The boats performance is simply due to where most people sit. Later designs of the Sundeck realized this and the hull was deigned differently to account for that. If you want to add some extra stern lift (hole shot), look at those tabs I mentioned above. Take some pictures and measurements and talk to that company to see if they have something that fits. Bennett also has a similar product. It really will make a huge difference. You can drop the prop pitch, although that has other impacts that could be seen as negative. But get your true MAX RPM, first - then we can talk.

    I don't think your compression numbers are anything to worry about at this point - especially given the cold test. I agree that they're on the lower side - but they're certainly not in a "problem" area. Plus, maybe your gauge reads low (or high!) :)
     
  11. scoflaw

    scoflaw Well-Known Member SILVER Sponsor

    Aug 10, 2011
    cape cod mass
    1999 Powerquest legend 260 sx
    502 mpi Bravo 1
    Sure, there fine to run and will be smooth too. But your complaining about a lack of power and your cranking compression numbers reflect that. Your original post said the boat was "lacking power greatly" so figured that was the issue at hand. Now you say you want a dependable boat, so that appears to be what you have.
     
  12. boater2018

    boater2018 New Member

    20
    Feb 26, 2018
    2000 Sea Ray 210 Sundeck
    Mercruiser 5.0 EFI
    Thank you sir, when I said lacking power greatly, I may have been under a false understanding of how the boat should perform, so I apologize if that was misleading...definitely wasn't meant that way. I guess I have been trying to see if the boat is underperforming due to engine issues or if it just performs that way, but there's not necessarily anything wrong with it, just not a fast boat. From the posts you guys have sent, it sounds like it's just not a speedy boat. It's looking like mechanically, I may be ok and just didn't think I was. I'll try the water test and get my max rpms and may look into the trim tabs, if that all checks out good.

    Once again, thank you guys....it's been a great help hearing from you and actually getting some good knowledge about the model's performance that myself and maybe others can benefit from. I got the boat with seemingly a lot of unknowns and not much help from mechanics, so I have unfortunately had to do a lot myself and was afraid maybe I still had issues due to some incorrect parts or maybe just tune-up, but needed some guidance to check it out, which you guys have graciously provided. I'll let you guys know how it runs in the water! Thanks again!
     
  13. tmo_7

    tmo_7 Member

    35
    Oct 23, 2012
    Alabama
    2000 210 Sundeck
    5.0L EFI with Alpha
    My boat is a 2000 210SD with 5.0 EFI 240 hp and Alpha 1. It has a 1.62 drive ratio. A few years ago, I tested and recorded conditions, top speed, and engine tach rpm. This is just FYI.

    1) 19p Mercury Vengeance stainless 3-blade prop, 14" x 19p: Tested full throttle top speed on smooth water. 2 people, 3/4 fuel, 1/2 water in tank, some supplies, trimmed up a bit. 4,850 rpm, 47 mph on GPS.

    2) 17p Hill Marine Signature stainless 4-blade prop, 14 1/4" x 17p: Tested full throttle top speed on smooth water. 2 people, 3/4 fuel, full water in tank, some supplies, trimmed up a bit. 4,750 rpm, 45 mph on GPS.
     
  14. scoflaw

    scoflaw Well-Known Member SILVER Sponsor

    Aug 10, 2011
    cape cod mass
    1999 Powerquest legend 260 sx
    502 mpi Bravo 1
    That's helpful info, clearly no slouch at 47. Same boat right ?
    tmo 7 how would you describe the hole shot ?
     
  15. tmo_7

    tmo_7 Member

    35
    Oct 23, 2012
    Alabama
    2000 210 Sundeck
    5.0L EFI with Alpha
    Yes, this is same boat as boater2018, with the exception of a few engine components. I wanted to be able to pull a heavy skier on slalom, which the new 17p 4-blade prop does better in this area. Last year, we pulled four skiers at the same time with no problems. Also, low-speed tracking seems to be a bit better (for an Alpha); e.g. it is easier to approach the trailer bunks. I have never swapped back to the 19p 3-blade Vengeance prop.
     
  16. boater2018

    boater2018 New Member

    20
    Feb 26, 2018
    2000 Sea Ray 210 Sundeck
    Mercruiser 5.0 EFI
    Hey guys, i’ve been out twice now. First time out, still slow to plane, but ran good once I got out of neutral, idled around 500 rpm, and would go dead at neutral, mid position. Only would start with accelerator 50% down. Ran great once slightly accelerated. To fix this, I took it to a local mechanic, he turned the idle screw on throttle body to idle it up, now starts 1st time every time and runs smoothly. Idles at 1000 rpm, which I believe is high.

    2nd trip (Yesterday), I installed a new 4 blade 17p prop (14x17 nemesis). Boat did much better out of the hole, ran good but I do have a new issue that may or may not be related.

    Later in the evening after leaving a store on the water, I noticed a sound when trying to plane that sound like the engine “revved up” for 1-2 seconds, maybe even slowed acceleration some, but could not tell for sure, then it would stop, plane out and run fine. No other noises, sounds smooth other than that, but it happened every time we started after that and has never done that before. Another issue, that happened all day, is that the boat is running higher rpms (maybe idling up caused this?) but is running much lower top end. I tried it by myself with only 1/4 tank of fuel and no gear, ran it up to 4900 rpm, could have gone higher, just scared to push it higher given it should peak at 4800 or so, and it was only going 34, may have bumped 35 mph once, running 48-4900 rpm. Seems like the rpms should be lower with the lower prop pitch, losing at least 5mph with higher rpms?

    Any ideas?
     
  17. Lazy Daze

    Lazy Daze Well-Known Member TECHNICAL Contributor GOLD Sponsor

    Apr 21, 2009
    PA
    Various
    Various
    A lower pitch prop will show lower MPH at a given RPM as compared to a higher pitch prop. It will increase your hole shot, but you will have a higher RPM at the same cruising MPH and your top end will have a lower MPH. FYI, dropping your pitch IS NOT a fix for a running issue... it is only a bandaid.

    Yes, 1,000RPM's is too high. Get that fixed ASAP. Why is your idle speed now 500 when it was not before? Go to a better mechanic - one that knows better than to leave a customer go with a high RPM.

    I briefly looked back through the thread, but can you verify:

    -- You definitely have a fuel injected engine?
    -- Speed is GPS or speedo based?
    -- You are trimming up to get your top speed?
    -- Check the little switch on the back of the tach gauge - move it around a bit, then make sure it is set on the 8-cylinder setting.
    -- How fresh is the fuel? Dump the fuel/water separator into a spaghetti sauce jar and smell it, then let it set for a few hours and come back and observe. Take a picture and post. If it smells like shellac or varnish, it's definitely bad.
    -- Are there any additives being used in the fuel (which ones) and when where they put in there compared to the fuel that is in there?
    -- What is the condition of the hull bottom and the drive/prop?
     
  18. boater2018

    boater2018 New Member

    20
    Feb 26, 2018
    2000 Sea Ray 210 Sundeck
    Mercruiser 5.0 EFI
    I really don’t know what the idle speed was before, just seemed like it was so low it was struggling to stay running. The boat cranked up first time after sitting for the winter. Then, I took to a mechanic to verify the timing on the motor, just precautionary due to the boat’s history, with me anyway. This was the original dealership that messed me over initially...this trip was supposed to be free and a “make it right” trip. They put fuel treatment in it, changed the fuel water separator, checked the shift cable adjustment, said all that was good, put the boat in the water and said it performed normal for a boat of its size with that size engine. When I picked the boat up, I took it to the ramp and it would not crank. Took it back to the dealer and the guy throttles it more, cranks it up, tells me older boats do that sometimes. I think that’s bull given it is a 2 barrel throttle body efi motor. I moved on, had to get it to an upholstery place before they closed. Then made our first lake trip on Memorial Day. So.....I didn’t have the starting issue until they looked at it. Sorry for the long reply,just giving the details. To answer your questions:
    -Definitely fuel injected
    -GPS speedo (phone) verified it with my truck speedo
    -trimmed down starting out, trimmed up after accelerating
    -haven’t checked the tach switch, although it should be good, but I will look at it
    -they added a fuel additive when they changed the fuel/water separator, can’t remember the brand, but i’m Thinking it’s Star Tron
    -hull bottom is good, freshwater, stays on trailer when not used, it is clean though....prop is new, hub is old hub....fin below prop on outdrive has 1 chip on the front, probably 1.5” top to bottom, 1/2”-3/4” deep, doesn’t look like it would cause performance issues to me

    Me and the mechanic felt the Idle Air Control valve might be starting to mess up and causing it to go dead. He just wanted me to try it out. One reason for idling it up was that if you barely give it gas, it smoothed out, didn’t take much at all, felt possible the screw needed some adjustment, but did too much for sure. My thoughts are to drop the idle back as far as I can and it still run smoothly maybe around 600? Or so, I just don’t know about the revving sound when getting to plan, only under heavy load that it did that. Suspicious of the prop hub starting to spin, although it looked ok from what I could tell when changing the prop the other day. I did grease the shaft and the hub with fresh grease prior to installing.
     
  19. dlvwill

    dlvwill Member

    106
    Jun 24, 2011
    Wichita, KS
    2004 220 Select
    350 MAG MPI w/ Bravo III
    The "revving sound" sounds like you were ventilating the prop, not a hub issue. Was trim up when it happened? You are propped too low, need a higher pitch prop. 1" change in prop changes your rpms +- 200 on the top end. You were close to bouncing off the rev limiter, need to bring the WOT rpms down.
     
  20. boater2018

    boater2018 New Member

    20
    Feb 26, 2018
    2000 Sea Ray 210 Sundeck
    Mercruiser 5.0 EFI
    I didn’t think to mention...Also, on Memorial Day, when it did idle and not go dead, it would idle irregularly. Going by memory, but jump from 500-600, maybe 650 rpms, then back down and do that over and over. Also, when I picked up the boat from the 2nd mechanic, i’m Pretty sure it was idling at 750-800 rpms, but idled at 1000 yesterday. I’m thinking definitely need to readjust the idle screw back down to reduce rpms at idle. Do these symptoms sound like idle air control? Something else....TPS? Ran worse after the dealer mechanic messed with it, as mentioned before, he changed fuel/water separator, I don’t know if he filled it with fuel first, could that cause the issues if he didn’t? Seems that would cause issues anytime though and not just idle.

    Quick run down of symptoms before increasing idle screw:
    1. Idle irregular, goes dead when in neautral mid position, slight increase in throttle seems to smooth it out
    2. Black smoke when cranking up
    3. Hard to start, only start when holding throttle down about halfway
    4. I also noticed the first time I started the boat this year (trailered with muffs), the temp gauge would read from normal operating temp to “0” back to normal and repeat, but it hasn’t done that since, seemed to work properly both times in the water

    Struggling for trustworthy mechanics in my area....last guy told me he hasn’t worked on many efi’s mostly multi port, but I do believe he is trying to assist knowing i’ve had 2 different dealer mechanics be of zero assistance at all, seems one of them even managed to set me back a little....could’ve just happened though and been perfect timing
     

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