Portable Honda Generators - Advertised on ClubSeaRay ???

Creekwood said:
Let's convert it to a generic carbon monoxide and boating thread. Everyone can read the document at the link below first though:

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/coboating/pdfs/ntlcaselisting.pdf

At the request of the U.S. Coast Guard, an interagency team (comprised of representatives ofthe National Park Service, the US Department of Interior, and the National Institute forOccupational Safety and Health) investigating boat-related CO poisonings compiled a listingof CO poisonings occurring across the United States. The last update of the listing compiledby the interagency team was dated October 2004.
This update was prepared by the Double Angel Foundation CO Awareness Committee. www.doubleangel.org, a non-profit organization dedicated to providing ongoing awarenessof the dangers of CO poisoning on boats. The newly identified poisonings added to theOctober 2004 listing are presented at the beginning of each section in blue Throughout the listing, information new to the update (such as updated numbers, or information added totext about poisonings that were in previous listings) are also in blue font.
This should not be viewed as a complete list of boat-related CO poisonings that haveoccurred, but rather as a listing of poisonings we have been able to identify through a numberof sources.
Each listing includes the name of the body of water (if known), a brief summary of thecircumstances of the poisoning, the source of the information, and the source of CO exposure(if made clear by the record reviewed). Individual entries are listed in alphabetical order bystate in which the incident occurred, organized in sections listed below.
Click to expand...


After reading half of this report, I say we need to outlaw houseboats and ski boats. The house boats had installed generators, and the ski boats engine was the cause. I only read one incidence where a portable generator was the problem.
My point is this, it doesn't seem to matter if the generator is installed or portable, CO needs to be managed.
The dangers from the electrical hazards (no proper ground) is really the difference, and should be the focus.....in my opinion.

So, all you folks that have installed gas generators, that give us portable users grief about CO should be aware. Installed or portable, CO is dangerous.
 
I'm so confused now after reading that Coast Guard report. I thought that portable generators were the problem but it looks to me that house boats with marine generator are just as dangerous how can this be.
 
As islandhopper said there was only one mention of a portable generator in that report. There were alot of onboard generators mentioned and generators that had there exhausts near the water line.
As I have said before from a CO perspective a portable generator on the swim platform is safer than a generator in the bilge of a boat that discharges the exhaust near the water line.
 
Anyone thinking about using a portable generator, do your research!!!!

Educate yourself about how boats are wired, and the grounding issues with boat wiring. Plugging your boats power cord into a portable generator, causes a reverse polarity indicator to illuminate on the electrical distribution panel. Educate yourself as to the reason why this condition occurs.

Understand why the remedy is a bandaid fix, and has it's own inherent dangers.
 
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Well Scott, if you read further into the report, there are plenty of example Sea Rays, with installed gen sets that had "issues" that caused the occupants to become overcome with CO. Don't think just because the generator is "installed" it is safe to operate.

My close call with CO poisoning was with a neighboring boats installed gen set. Their gen set was dumping exhaust into my boats cabin, via open windows, causing my CO detector to alarm. They wouldn't shut down their generator, so I had to move.
 
sfergson727 said:
Don't misunderstand, I have long history of opposing portable generators on boats, and am not a fan of running a permanently installed one near other boats. I don't have a generator, but I have never been comfortable with someone running their's near my boat when in anchorage. (I consider it rude, inconsiderate, if not downright dangerous.)

Regarding portables, the electrical issue (IMHO) is more of a danger and can't be rectified, but the CO risk is often rationalized away.
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Ya mean like.....I have a factor installed genny so I'm OK.
 
Creekwood said:
Let's convert it to a generic carbon monoxide and boating thread. Everyone can read the document at the link below first though:

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/coboating/pdfs/ntlcaselisting.pdf

At the request of the U.S. Coast Guard, an interagency team (comprised of representatives ofthe National Park Service, the US Department of Interior, and the National Institute forOccupational Safety and Health) investigating boat-related CO poisonings compiled a listingof CO poisonings occurring across the United States. The last update of the listing compiledby the interagency team was dated October 2004.
This update was prepared by the Double Angel Foundation CO Awareness Committee. www.doubleangel.org, a non-profit organization dedicated to providing ongoing awarenessof the dangers of CO poisoning on boats. The newly identified poisonings added to theOctober 2004 listing are presented at the beginning of each section in blue Throughout the listing, information new to the update (such as updated numbers, or information added totext about poisonings that were in previous listings) are also in blue font.
This should not be viewed as a complete list of boat-related CO poisonings that haveoccurred, but rather as a listing of poisonings we have been able to identify through a numberof sources.
Each listing includes the name of the body of water (if known), a brief summary of thecircumstances of the poisoning, the source of the information, and the source of CO exposure(if made clear by the record reviewed). Individual entries are listed in alphabetical order bystate in which the incident occurred, organized in sections listed below.
Click to expand...




I read the report and am blown away by the notion that people really do "teak surf". I've been around boats all my life, have owned several inboard ski boats, started water skiing at about age 10 on the lakes in Tennessee and have never even seen someone do this. To me the CO exposure is pretty obvious, but what about the prop turning about 2 ft forward of where the kids legs dangling the water as they wait for the driver, who cannot see them from the driver's seat, to put the boat n gear and get going.

The particular house boat listed the most is a make where the manufacturer dumps the generator exhaust thru the transom under the swim platform where the engine fumes stay trapped.
 
islandhopper00 said:
Anyone thinking about using a portable generator, do your research!!!!

Educate yourself about how boats are wired, and the grounding issues with boat wiring. Plugging your boats power cord into a portable generator, causes a reverse polarity indicator to illuminate on the electrical distribution panel. Educate yourself as to the reason why this condition occurs.

Understand why the remedy is a bandaid fix, and has it's own inherent dangers.
Click to expand...

I have remained on the sidelines all these years reading the vast multitude of threads on generators and the dangers. I do understand the CO danger and tend to think it doesn't matter whether it is portable or permanently installed gas generator. However I still do not completely understand the grounding danger (which Frank has also mentioned many times).

Would one of you please educate this electrically-challenged boater precisely what the issue and danger is... ie; what is the electrical gremlin that can kill me and how can it happen if I plug an onboard AC unit into an ungrounded portable genny?... Can it cause a spark in the engine room and blow me up? Will it fry my electronics and set the boat on fire? Will it boil battery acid over into my bilge and corrode a hole through the hull and sink me? Will it attract lightning strikes from storms far away? What exactly is the danger?

Thanks for helping and educating :)
 
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I can't wait to hear the response to the "ungrounded portable generator" dangers.
 
That is a very good question and a point that always gets lost in these "generator popcorn discussions". In terms of risk there is a lot more to consider than just CO poisoning with portable generators yet the pro-generator crowd seems to choose to consider only the most obvious risk. To answer your question, here is the rest of the story:


#1 Lack of ignition protection on electrical devices

The electrical components on portable generators are not ignition protected like marine generator electrical components are. This means you could easily have an arc or spark anytime a contact opens or closes or whenever something is plugged in or disconnected.


#2 Fuel System Design

The fuel system components and design are not meant to be used in a marine environment or in enclosed spaces. They meet no marine certification of any type. Specifically, the fuel systems on Honda and other portable generators are vented to the atmosphere and their carburetors have a bowl vents and overflows that releases fuel inside the generator case. That means where you run it, store it or put it while under way will have gasoline fumes released in the area and, if the bowl drain leaks, you have raw fuel spilled and an explosive liquid in the compartment with the generator. Now go back and re-read #1………….


#3. Lack of Continuous Grounding

Portable generators pose an additional shock hazard since the portable is not grounded to the boat or to a shore side ground. Likely not a problem with a drill or power tool, but if you connect a portable generator to your boat's AC system, you have essentially disconnected the green wire.

In addition, most light weight portable generators, like the Honda EU series, use inverters. An inverter drives both the line and the neutral so it is possible to have potential or voltage between neutral and ground. So, even if you ground the generator to the boat's bonding system, you can still have a shock hazard because with the generator's ground connected to the boat's bonding system, (which means to the water) a shock hazard may exist that normally should not since the neutral could have voltage on it.


I hope that helps you understand some of why this discussion gets so active, particularly when some folks refuse to consider all of the risks and get fixated on only CO poisoning.
 
fwebster said:
That is a very good question and a point that always gets lost in these "generator popcorn discussions". In terms of risk there is a lot more to consider than just CO poisoning with portable generators yet the pro-generator crowd seems to choose to consider only the most obvious risk. To answer your question, here is the rest of the story:


#1 Lack of ignition protection on electrical devices

The electrical components on portable generators are not ignition protected like marine generator electrical components are. This means you could easily have an arc or spark anytime a contact opens or closes or whenever something is plugged in or disconnected.


#2 Fuel System Design

The fuel system components and design are not meant to be used in a marine environment or in enclosed spaces. They meet no marine certification of any type. Specifically, the fuel systems on Honda and other portable generators are vented to the atmosphere and their carburetors have a bowl vents and overflows that releases fuel inside the generator case. That means where you run it, store it or put it while under way will have gasoline fumes released in the area and, if the bowl drain leaks, you have raw fuel spilled and an explosive liquid in the compartment with the generator. Now go back and re-read #1………….


#3. Lack of Continuous Grounding

Portable generators pose an additional shock hazard since the portable is not grounded to the boat or to a shore side ground. Likely not a problem with a drill or power tool, but if you connect a portable generator to your boat's AC system, you have essentially disconnected the green wire.

In addition, most light weight portable generators, like the Honda EU series, use inverters. An inverter drives both the line and the neutral so it is possible to have potential or voltage between neutral and ground. So, even if you ground the generator to the boat's bonding system, you can still have a shock hazard because with the generator's ground connected to the boat's bonding system, (which means to the water) a shock hazard may exist that normally should not since the neutral could have voltage on it.


I hope that helps you understand some of why this discussion gets so active, particularly when some folks refuse to consider all of the risks and get fixated on only CO poisoning.
Click to expand...


The real problem is that some folks post misleading and bad information.
Lets look at your first point.
#1 Lack of ignition protection on electrical devices

Ignition protection is only required on gasoline engines and components that are in an enclosed space where gasoline fumes could be present.

Section 33 CFR183.410 states that ignition protected devices are not required when
(3) The space between the electrical component and the gasoline fuel source is at least two feet and the space is open to the atmosphere.

I think that a swim platform qualifies as as a space open to the atmosphere.

How many people use a BBQ or smoke on the swim platform? these are both more of an ignition hazard than a generator but no one seems to be concerned about these. Outboard engines are not required to meet the ignition protection standards that inboards or I/O are.

So you are stating a requirement that does not apply in the intended use case. Its equivalent to me saying your diesel engines are not safe because they are not ignition protected.

Even on a gasoline powered boat there are many electrical devices that are not ignition protected. Every thing from you micro wave oven, refrigerator, TV coffee maker etc. Yet I don't see you bring these up as an issue. Why because they are not in an area that requires ignition protection. The same as a portable generator on the swim platform does't require it.
 
The lack of continuous ground is the one that concerns me. However it doesn't stop me from using a portable generator on the swim platform of my boat. In order to turn the reverse polarity light off, you have to put a jumper wire in the line. (I'm not going to say which ones, because I want you to do your own research).
Like Frank says, when using a portable, you basically unhook your ground wire. That means if whatever is plugged in, develops a short to the case, and you touch the item, you can get shocked. The chance you take is compounded by the fact that your boat is subjected to waves and vibration, which can cause the wiring to abrade and cause the short.
I justify my gamble by checking grounds and wiring condition of some of the equipment periodically.
 
Westie said:
The real problem is that some folks post misleading and bad information.
Lets look at your first point.
#1 Lack of ignition protection on electrical devices

Ignition protection is only required on gasoline engines and components that are in an enclosed space where gasoline fumes could be present.

Section 33 CFR183.410 states that ignition protected devices are not required when
(3) The space between the electrical component and the gasoline fuel source is at least two feet and the space is open to the atmosphere.

I think that a swim platform qualifies as as a space open to the atmosphere.

How many people use a BBQ or smoke on the swim platform? these are both more of an ignition hazard than a generator but no one seems to be concerned about these. Outboard engines are not required to meet the ignition protection standards that inboards or I/O are.

So you are stating a requirement that does not apply in the intended use case. Its equivalent to me saying your diesel engines are not safe because they are not ignition protected.

Even on a gasoline powered boat there are many electrical devices that are not ignition protected. Every thing from you micro wave oven, refrigerator, TV coffee maker etc. Yet I don't see you bring these up as an issue. Why because they are not in an area that requires ignition protection. The same as a portable generator on the swim platform does't require it.
Click to expand...


Well, I'm not going to debate this again, except to say your 2 ft ignition protected device argument is an example of what I mean when I say you have to examine all the risks involved in using portable generators, then decide for yourself if you are willing to accept that risk for your family.

I'm talking about the generator's components being ignition protected, not your coffee maker or microwave. That means your 2 ft argument is meaningless because none of the electrical devices on the portable generator are ignition protected, and those are the ones I'm describing. This means your spark source follows the generator everywhere you run it.

But how about when you don't run it? Where do you stow it when underway? In the cockpit, in the trunk, in the bilge, in the cabin? Your ice maker isn't ignition protected…..the power breaker in the trunk (if your power inlets are located there)….and how about the fact that the generator's fuel system is vented and the carb bowl overflow drains inside the case …….and your non-required ignition protected spark source is about 2 ft away.
 
Generator manufacturers require you to bond the neutral to the case of the generator when not using a earthen ground.This is how service trucks and RV getaway with out grounding to earth when they using their generator. When you do this ground and neutral have the same potential with the case and once you plug the boats shore power cord into the generator it is also bonded to the ground and the case of the generator. When a generator is used at home the generator should be either connected to the houses ground stake or one drove into the ground and connected to the generators case.Ten to one no one does that so the chances of getting shocked is no different if not properly used.
 
fwebster said:
But how about when you don't run it? Where do you stow it when underway? In the cockpit, in the trunk, in the bilge, in the cabin? Your ice maker isn't ignition protected…..the power breaker in the trunk (if your power inlets are located there)….and how about the fact that the generator's fuel system is vented and the carb bowl overflow drains inside the case …….and your non-required ignition protected spark source is about 2 ft away.
Click to expand...

I stow mine in the transom trunk while under way and you're telling me that the un-powered shore power breaker can cause a spark there and I should be concerned? You really are clutching at straws.

On my generator there is a fuel shut off valve that I close while the generator is running and I allow it to run until it stops due to lack of fuel. No fuel in the bowl that way.
 
islandhopper00 said:
Anyone thinking about using a portable generator, do your research!!!!

Educate yourself about how boats are wired, and the grounding issues with boat wiring. Plugging your boats power cord into a portable generator, causes a reverse polarity indicator to illuminate on the electrical distribution panel. Educate yourself as to the reason why this condition occurs.

Understand why the remedy is a bandaid fix, and has it's own inherent dangers.
Click to expand...

So, put a bandaid over the reverse polarity indicator light-got it
 
Westie said:
I stow mine in the transom trunk while under way and you're telling me that the un-powered shore power breaker can cause a spark there and I should be concerned? You really are clutching at straws.

On my generator there is a fuel shut off valve that I close while the generator is running and I allow it to run until it stops due to lack of fuel. No fuel in the bowl that way.
Click to expand...



Of course not……………


I am concerned about the less experienced CSR members who read your posts where you say portable generators are perfectly safe,
ut never explain how you control the risks.
 
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