Are you at all pissed that Obama spent 80 billion of your money to prevent the GM and Chrysler from going bankrupt? Remember how bad Obama and the democrats said it would be if they filed chapter 11? How is that plan working out? IDIOTS!!! Where is the outrage? Why not a single news story on this blunder? Why hasn't his popularity rating plumeted? Where's my 80 billion? Is anyone paying attention?
JV II
Wouldn't want to say that to the families with losses in NY... The US acted and didn’t allow another city(s) to be successfully attacked - we are fortunate we don't know the alternative.
Still trying to figure out what Obama is doing...
Still trying to figure out what Obama is doing...
I'm not sure Saddam still running Iraq would be better for us. Also, complain all you want about Bush (I certainly do). But when it comes to the War on Terrror, it has been a great success. There has not been an attack on American soil in over 7 years. Even the most optimistic pundits did not predict that after 9/11. Bush effectively fought terrorists as an away game.
And yes, I'm amazed at what Obama is doing. These are not the tactics that made America great.
And yes, I'm amazed at what Obama is doing. These are not the tactics that made America great.
Really? Then exactly what are those things? Considering that the Prez inherited a HUGH mess, should we just let GM fail.? I drive a CADDY how many of you are driving foreign cars and scream about all the money leaving this country!
Pugwash,
Germany had nothing to do with Pearl Harbor. Japan's attack got us into WWII. But once we were in the fight we recognized the direct threat Germany posed. While we fought both fronts of World War II, the understood policy was victory in Europe first.
It took some time, but once we eventually realized that facist imperialism had to be stopped, we stopped it everywhere we could find it. And we required unconditional surrenders. This in my opinion, (and many scholars) is why WWII was such a success for America.
Germany had nothing to do with Pearl Harbor. Japan's attack got us into WWII. But once we were in the fight we recognized the direct threat Germany posed. While we fought both fronts of World War II, the understood policy was victory in Europe first.
It took some time, but once we eventually realized that facist imperialism had to be stopped, we stopped it everywhere we could find it. And we required unconditional surrenders. This in my opinion, (and many scholars) is why WWII was such a success for America.
I believe the reason we haven't invaded Iran yet, is because of their strong Islamic ties to many other countries in the area. Iraq didn't have any friends, they were causing fights with all of their neighbors. Lobbing scuds into Israel, Saudi, invading Kuwait, at war with Iran forever. Who knows what would have happened to the area if we let Iraq continue to invade other countries... Maybe Iran might have had a case for building nuclear weapons, now they don't. I'm not privy to that information but I'm sure it will play out over the years and we'll see why.
What puzzles me is N. Korea. Why on earth is everyone allowing a hostile country build and test nuclear weapons? Why would China allow this? unless they have a plan to let N. Korea lob a missile onto S. Korea, then invade N. Korea, make a case for a unified Korea and win it. Then more things can be "Made in China".
What puzzles me is N. Korea. Why on earth is everyone allowing a hostile country build and test nuclear weapons? Why would China allow this? unless they have a plan to let N. Korea lob a missile onto S. Korea, then invade N. Korea, make a case for a unified Korea and win it. Then more things can be "Made in China".
I think even worse than the GM bankruptcy deal is the fact that Obama thinks he is in the car warranty department... WTF? Also - part of the bankruptcy ruling should be NO MORE UNIONS.
About the money leaving the US - I've certainly done my part - and actually drive all American cars - Mustang, Expedition, Excursion, Bronco and soon to be an Explorer and of course my Sea Ray. I also bought a company in January which is probably the worst time - but it employs 5 people and provides a service to our area.
What should really bother us all is the 'global resource' BS that our companies are pouring all over us. I've watched way too many jobs disappear from the tech sector to go to India, China, Guadalajara, Singapore and other locations. They pretend they are saving money - when I used to have to try and reconcile that crap - it's pure crap. You might end up saving a few dollars but the skill sucks and the quality of work is dismal. They don't care - China is the worst and their main goal is to try and get more of your work at the expense of US workers.
About the money leaving the US - I've certainly done my part - and actually drive all American cars - Mustang, Expedition, Excursion, Bronco and soon to be an Explorer and of course my Sea Ray. I also bought a company in January which is probably the worst time - but it employs 5 people and provides a service to our area.
What should really bother us all is the 'global resource' BS that our companies are pouring all over us. I've watched way too many jobs disappear from the tech sector to go to India, China, Guadalajara, Singapore and other locations. They pretend they are saving money - when I used to have to try and reconcile that crap - it's pure crap. You might end up saving a few dollars but the skill sucks and the quality of work is dismal. They don't care - China is the worst and their main goal is to try and get more of your work at the expense of US workers.
To me the real issue here is whether you think GM will be sucessful after they get out of Chapter 11. If the answer is yes then our government made the right choice and the "loans" get paid back. If the answer is no, then yes........we are out some big bucks. I am on the fence on that one.
Personally I don't think chapter 11 was the right course of action but letting them fail was not the right choice either. I think anything that further destabilizes the economy in such a poor economic climate like the one we are in (which Chapter 11 will do) is the wrong choice. In the long run we would have been better off taking more time to find other alternatives for GM besides bankruptcy even if we had to continue to loan them more money....but that's just my opinion.
In the end though all of our opinions don't mean squat. History will prove whether the Obama whiz kids made the right choice or not.
Personally I don't think chapter 11 was the right course of action but letting them fail was not the right choice either. I think anything that further destabilizes the economy in such a poor economic climate like the one we are in (which Chapter 11 will do) is the wrong choice. In the long run we would have been better off taking more time to find other alternatives for GM besides bankruptcy even if we had to continue to loan them more money....but that's just my opinion.
In the end though all of our opinions don't mean squat. History will prove whether the Obama whiz kids made the right choice or not.
Someone please explain to me how letting GM go into chapter 11 back in January would cause the company to "fail," but letting them go into chapter 11 in June after giving them billions to delay the filing would allow them to succeed? Am I missing something?
Here's my take on it. If they went into chapter 11 in January the outcome for the company would be the same. It will reorganize, spin off new companies, restructure, and downsize. GM will still be around in 50 years. The only difference in doing this sooner rather than later is that the taxpayers would have saved billions. Chapter 11 was the right thing for the company and it should have happened without any government involvement. The bailout was the worst economic mistake in US history. We'll never see that money paid back.
Promocop and Dave S, please help me understand the benefit of the billions of tax dollars that were spent on this company in the last 6 months. Thanks.
By the way, the American employees making BMWs in S. Carolina, Toyotas in Kentucky, and Nissans in Tennessee and Mississippi are doing much better supporting their families and local business than those in Detroit. VW is building a plant in Tennessee. I'm sure the residents in Chattanooga are thrilled and anxiously anticipating its opening like the Kia plant worker are about their plant in West Point Georgia. I have yet to see or read a negative interview of any factory worker for Toyota, Nissan, BMW. Buying a US car for the sake of patriotism is an outdated concept. What does it say about the American car buyer when they still can't recognize that their support over the years has resulted in this mess. Its like the battered woman's syndrome.
I'm going to make a prediction. The auto plants in Detroit will soon be bought and managed by foreign companies, which would be a good thing. Maybe Chinese?
Flame retarding suit is on.
Here's my take on it. If they went into chapter 11 in January the outcome for the company would be the same. It will reorganize, spin off new companies, restructure, and downsize. GM will still be around in 50 years. The only difference in doing this sooner rather than later is that the taxpayers would have saved billions. Chapter 11 was the right thing for the company and it should have happened without any government involvement. The bailout was the worst economic mistake in US history. We'll never see that money paid back.
Promocop and Dave S, please help me understand the benefit of the billions of tax dollars that were spent on this company in the last 6 months. Thanks.
By the way, the American employees making BMWs in S. Carolina, Toyotas in Kentucky, and Nissans in Tennessee and Mississippi are doing much better supporting their families and local business than those in Detroit. VW is building a plant in Tennessee. I'm sure the residents in Chattanooga are thrilled and anxiously anticipating its opening like the Kia plant worker are about their plant in West Point Georgia. I have yet to see or read a negative interview of any factory worker for Toyota, Nissan, BMW. Buying a US car for the sake of patriotism is an outdated concept. What does it say about the American car buyer when they still can't recognize that their support over the years has resulted in this mess. Its like the battered woman's syndrome.
I'm going to make a prediction. The auto plants in Detroit will soon be bought and managed by foreign companies, which would be a good thing. Maybe Chinese?
Flame retarding suit is on.
I'm watching the 11:00 news. The Chinese bought Hummer. My prophesy is playing out. No more unions at Hummer.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,524520,00.html?test=latestnews
Why does the discussion always turn to what Bush did? Ok so some of us didn't like Bush and his stategies, but what about our current President? Do you really believe he is doing the right things for America? What a about now? Do you really believe that the spending of trillions of dollars and increasing taxes is the correct path for us. When did this ever work? We've got to stop justifying what Obama is doing by pointing to Bushes mistakes. Sooner or later this honeymoon will be over. It's going to be ugly when it is. The longer it takes us to pull our heads out of the sand the uglier it will be.
My sis's BMW was made in Tennessee... My Toyota Tundra in Indiana(now they're made in Texas). What's the issue? Unfortunately one of my friends just bought a dodge pickup because his friends would give him grief that it's not a US made truck. He probably has as many, if not more foreign parts in that, than in a current Tundra, but good luck at trying to tell his friends that. I can't believe he caved into them, oh well.
His last Dodge Pickup transmission died (second or third time) with less than 80k on the truck.
They might be upset that Tundra is non-union. Hmmm, they all have jobs (even when they closed the plant for 3 or so months last yr during a downturn in sales, and to much inventory on dealers lots). Tundra kept paying them, and sent them out into the community to work on projects there! Now that, in my mind, is a great way to take care of your workers (if you have the ability to do so)!
-VtSeaRay
His last Dodge Pickup transmission died (second or third time) with less than 80k on the truck.
They might be upset that Tundra is non-union. Hmmm, they all have jobs (even when they closed the plant for 3 or so months last yr during a downturn in sales, and to much inventory on dealers lots). Tundra kept paying them, and sent them out into the community to work on projects there! Now that, in my mind, is a great way to take care of your workers (if you have the ability to do so)!
-VtSeaRay
US Auto's are made from US made components. The "Just In Time" assembly processes require parts and component assemblies be very close to the final assembly plant. There are no longer parts supply warehouses, any warehousing is in the truck trailer between parts mfg and the assembly plant.
The point is that nearly all the parts and sub assemblies for US made autos are made in the US by US Corporations BUT owned by foreign owned manufacturers such as Denso, Panasonic, Yanmar (Japan). This was done to meet the regulatory restrictions on US auto makers for percentage use of foreign made parts. A foreign owned factory in the US is a US made part for regulatory compliance.
These sub component suppliers are not generally unionized and operate at traditional world comparative costs.
The Foreign Branded Assembly plant sin the US operate in much the same way, they buy parts from US plants which are foreign owned. This includes BMW, Mercedes, Honda, Toyota and others.
When GM and Chrysler filed for CH11 Reorganization they in general are able to abrogate all their excutory contracts with land lords, unions etc..
The process being undertaken in these instance s is a "363 Sale" where the Oldco remains a entity and retains all its liabilities and debts, without sufficient assets to retire them. The Judge convert the bankruptcy to a Ch. 7 and liquidate by collecting all the Oldco assets sell them off and pay out the secured debt holders and right sympathetic letters to the unsecured creditors. I estimate legal fees for GM’s Bankruptcy: $100 Million!
Going forward Oldco is allowed to sell its assets to a third party where the proceeds of sale are used by OldGM to settle its obligations and pay the cost of bankruptcy. Newco(s) go forward with a squeaky clean slate.
In GM's case what is happening is the The Existing GM shareholders have been "nuked" and get nothing (this includes the pension funds, insurance companies, and trust funds that own GM in their portfolios). Parts suppliers will get some consideration, but mostly "nuked".
Bond holders for Oldco will get new shares in NewGM albeit a smaller share of ownership but will be unsecured, creating "Mini Nuked" pension funds, insurance companies, and private equity and hedge investment funds, AND
You my fellow citizens have supplied the all important 80 Billion in cash to purchase the assets in to NewGM and recapitalize the NewGM and you get 60% of the common equity of New GM. But here is the really neat part of GM and the Unions is that that 17 Billion PLUS "We The People" lent to GM back in January ... You got NUKED again!
New GM will launch without any debt, money in the bank, cars in "work in progress" a pared down dealer network where those shed will have been "nuked". New labor agreements (mostly still onerous) will be in place with the unions getting 20% equity.
Everyone else "Nuked". So here is the high spots on GM:
Bondholders of OldCo get 20% equity
Unions Get 20% Equity
US Gov't Get 60% Equity.
A large portion of the dealer network gets "Nuked." and hold the angry consumer bag of car owners without local dealers for service.
Then 13 Communities with assembly plants get "Nuked" and huge numbers of employees displaced into unemployment lines ... to collect all that cash forced down the states throats to support the unemployment system ... (wasn’t this about saving jobs?)
Solvent local businesses in all these States will get whopping unemployment tax increases to support the drained benefit system, (yes it is each States employers that pay for unemployment benefits and not the Feds), So good businesses get "Mini Nuked" and their goods become less competitive.
The really cool thing is if the politicos mess with this government owned and controlled GM you'll get a second chance to fix the sacred lamb.
Now We have not heard much about Chrysler but a "363 Sale" to Fiat has been in the works, but Fiat is only obligated itself to buy the assets for another two weeks. Chrysler and Fiat are not accepting the union line ... the Unions just might decide to kill Chrysler's best chance which is Fiat in the chance they can and will get more of the company in a follow up bid when Fiat walks. Right now, its Fiat's "Stalking Horse" bid any other suitor must beat or the process breaks. If a new auction for the assets is undertaken in an emergency circumstance, the unions would be the strongest bidder, and guess what they will get billions from YOU to support their bid. Chrysler has to repay their loans to the Feds (you) in two weeks, which if that comes to pass means it will get the GM treatment, and WE all really get "Nuked Again"!
The travesty of this all is the money we gave the Auto industry was not to save it, but to give it time to prepare for bankruptcy. Bankruptcy is not for the penniless. This process is only useful for companies that maybe hopelessly impaired but have lots of cash. If you are dead broke, you can't use bankruptcy. Go figure!
Pitch Forks are in rack to the right!
The point is that nearly all the parts and sub assemblies for US made autos are made in the US by US Corporations BUT owned by foreign owned manufacturers such as Denso, Panasonic, Yanmar (Japan). This was done to meet the regulatory restrictions on US auto makers for percentage use of foreign made parts. A foreign owned factory in the US is a US made part for regulatory compliance.
These sub component suppliers are not generally unionized and operate at traditional world comparative costs.
The Foreign Branded Assembly plant sin the US operate in much the same way, they buy parts from US plants which are foreign owned. This includes BMW, Mercedes, Honda, Toyota and others.
When GM and Chrysler filed for CH11 Reorganization they in general are able to abrogate all their excutory contracts with land lords, unions etc..
The process being undertaken in these instance s is a "363 Sale" where the Oldco remains a entity and retains all its liabilities and debts, without sufficient assets to retire them. The Judge convert the bankruptcy to a Ch. 7 and liquidate by collecting all the Oldco assets sell them off and pay out the secured debt holders and right sympathetic letters to the unsecured creditors. I estimate legal fees for GM’s Bankruptcy: $100 Million!
Going forward Oldco is allowed to sell its assets to a third party where the proceeds of sale are used by OldGM to settle its obligations and pay the cost of bankruptcy. Newco(s) go forward with a squeaky clean slate.
In GM's case what is happening is the The Existing GM shareholders have been "nuked" and get nothing (this includes the pension funds, insurance companies, and trust funds that own GM in their portfolios). Parts suppliers will get some consideration, but mostly "nuked".
Bond holders for Oldco will get new shares in NewGM albeit a smaller share of ownership but will be unsecured, creating "Mini Nuked" pension funds, insurance companies, and private equity and hedge investment funds, AND
You my fellow citizens have supplied the all important 80 Billion in cash to purchase the assets in to NewGM and recapitalize the NewGM and you get 60% of the common equity of New GM. But here is the really neat part of GM and the Unions is that that 17 Billion PLUS "We The People" lent to GM back in January ... You got NUKED again!
New GM will launch without any debt, money in the bank, cars in "work in progress" a pared down dealer network where those shed will have been "nuked". New labor agreements (mostly still onerous) will be in place with the unions getting 20% equity.
Everyone else "Nuked". So here is the high spots on GM:
Bondholders of OldCo get 20% equity
Unions Get 20% Equity
US Gov't Get 60% Equity.
A large portion of the dealer network gets "Nuked." and hold the angry consumer bag of car owners without local dealers for service.
Then 13 Communities with assembly plants get "Nuked" and huge numbers of employees displaced into unemployment lines ... to collect all that cash forced down the states throats to support the unemployment system ... (wasn’t this about saving jobs?)
Solvent local businesses in all these States will get whopping unemployment tax increases to support the drained benefit system, (yes it is each States employers that pay for unemployment benefits and not the Feds), So good businesses get "Mini Nuked" and their goods become less competitive.
The really cool thing is if the politicos mess with this government owned and controlled GM you'll get a second chance to fix the sacred lamb.
Now We have not heard much about Chrysler but a "363 Sale" to Fiat has been in the works, but Fiat is only obligated itself to buy the assets for another two weeks. Chrysler and Fiat are not accepting the union line ... the Unions just might decide to kill Chrysler's best chance which is Fiat in the chance they can and will get more of the company in a follow up bid when Fiat walks. Right now, its Fiat's "Stalking Horse" bid any other suitor must beat or the process breaks. If a new auction for the assets is undertaken in an emergency circumstance, the unions would be the strongest bidder, and guess what they will get billions from YOU to support their bid. Chrysler has to repay their loans to the Feds (you) in two weeks, which if that comes to pass means it will get the GM treatment, and WE all really get "Nuked Again"!
The travesty of this all is the money we gave the Auto industry was not to save it, but to give it time to prepare for bankruptcy. Bankruptcy is not for the penniless. This process is only useful for companies that maybe hopelessly impaired but have lots of cash. If you are dead broke, you can't use bankruptcy. Go figure!
Pitch Forks are in rack to the right!
I will go out of my way from now on to buy products and services from NON-UNIONIZED companies.
The unions have backed the liberals for a long time. Now, we are all screwed. The inmates are actually running the assylum. So, the only thing that I can do is to sit back and let the inevitable happen. i am sick and tired of being demonized and mocked by the left. Fine. You made this bed, now we shall all lie in it. Just be aware that I WILL research every large purchase and contract that I sign from now on to make sure that none of my money will ever support a unionized business again. At this popint, our economy is wrecked for all of us. Anyone who understands what is going on knows that the liberals have successfully destroyed this country. I will not help them in our hour of need.
To all of the non-lefties on this board, how does the idea of a "Conservative Business Network" sound? We should put up a web site, and list only companies who do not allow unions, support liberalism, or any other "un-American" policies like open borders (yes, we can kick out XX million illegal aliens, and yes, it will take a while, but it can be done). Then, at least we can support each other without helping the other side. I'm done with them.
Michael
The unions have backed the liberals for a long time. Now, we are all screwed. The inmates are actually running the assylum. So, the only thing that I can do is to sit back and let the inevitable happen. i am sick and tired of being demonized and mocked by the left. Fine. You made this bed, now we shall all lie in it. Just be aware that I WILL research every large purchase and contract that I sign from now on to make sure that none of my money will ever support a unionized business again. At this popint, our economy is wrecked for all of us. Anyone who understands what is going on knows that the liberals have successfully destroyed this country. I will not help them in our hour of need.
To all of the non-lefties on this board, how does the idea of a "Conservative Business Network" sound? We should put up a web site, and list only companies who do not allow unions, support liberalism, or any other "un-American" policies like open borders (yes, we can kick out XX million illegal aliens, and yes, it will take a while, but it can be done). Then, at least we can support each other without helping the other side. I'm done with them.
Michael
It is possible GM could repay the loans the US has given them. If Obama keeps printing money runaway inflation will occur. Then GM can pay us back with worthless dollars. We will be no better off than a 3rd world country. In only two presidents terms we will have destroyed the greatest economy ever known. China will be the next super power. They learned from us and we forgot history.
I feel for the youth of this country.
I feel for the youth of this country.
Yep... All of them... Unless you can show me one that has supported non liberal candidates at least a couple of times. Every union member that I know votes for whom the union says to vote. Not once have I heard any of them say that their union was backing a non liberal candidate. Since they have been that blind and closed minded for so long, it is time for me to do the same. They are getting what they wanted. I hope they enjoy it. I just won't be helping. Time for me to become closed minded as well. They made me do it.
Any contracting work that I have done from now on will be given to private, non union construction companies.
All vehicles that I buy for now on will be bought from non unionized auto manufacturers.
Anything that I have to have transported will be done by non unionized trucking companies.
I will no longer buy any products that say "made in the USA with union labor". If I can't find a non union made product, I will do without.
Your union is safe. I can't buy a different Fire Department. So I guess we're stuck with each other.
Are any of the beer companies unionized? I surely hope not
Any contracting work that I have done from now on will be given to private, non union construction companies.
All vehicles that I buy for now on will be bought from non unionized auto manufacturers.
Anything that I have to have transported will be done by non unionized trucking companies.
I will no longer buy any products that say "made in the USA with union labor". If I can't find a non union made product, I will do without.
Your union is safe. I can't buy a different Fire Department. So I guess we're stuck with each other.
Are any of the beer companies unionized? I surely hope not
My union didn't tell me how to vote, so there's one for you.
As for unions, I do the same job as 3000 other people I work with. In some cases, collective bargaining is the only way to go.
Sorry you won't hire union workers. My father-in-law was like that ever since he had some hot rivets dropped on him. Not all unions are created equally. I work in the airline industry, and it amazes me how many people sign up for low-paying "non-union" flying jobs, only to organize a few years later when they realize it's the only way to protect their working conditions.
100% agree with what Chad wrote. Every post I was going to create, Chad did and did better. Good work!
The only thing I'll add is that 80b is a pile 'o cash. Considering the "new GM's" anticipated market share, they will be hard pressed to pay that back.
Best regards,
Frank C
Interesting reading
From yesterday's WSJ"
What I Learned as a Car Czar
History shows government and automobile manufacturing don't mix.
By ION MIHAI PACEPA
They say history repeats itself. If you are like me and have lived two lives, you have a good chance of seeing the re-enactment with your own eyes. The current takeover of General Motors by the U.S. government and United Auto Workers makes me think back to Romania's catastrophic mismanagement of the car factories it built jointly with the French companies Renault and Citroen. I was Romania's car czar.
When the Romanian dictator Nicolae Ceausescu decided in the mid-1960s that he wanted to have a car industry, he chose me to start the project rolling. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. I knew nothing about manufacturing cars, but neither did anyone else among Ceausescu's top men. However, my father had spent most of his life running the service department of the General Motors affiliate in Bucharest.
My job at the time was as head of the Romanian industrial espionage program. Ceausescu tasked me to mediate the purchase of a minimum, basic license for a small car from a major Western manufacturer, and then to steal everything else needed to produce the car.
Three Western companies competed for the honor. Ceausescu decided on Renault, because it was owned by the French government (all Soviet bloc rulers distrusted private companies). We ended up with a license for an antiquated and about-to-be-discontinued Renault-12 car, because it was the cheapest. "Good enough for the idiots," Ceausescu decided, showing what he thought of the Romanian people. He baptized the car Dacia, to commemorate Romania's 2,000-year history going back to Dacia Felix, as the ancient Romans called that part of the world. In that government-run economy, symbolism was the most important consideration, especially when it came to things in short supply (such as food).
"Too luxurious for the idiots," Ceausescu decreed when he saw the first Dacia car made in Romania. Immediately, the radio, right side mirror and backseat heating were dropped. Other "unnecessary luxuries" were soon eliminated by the bureaucrats and their workers' union that were running the factory. The car that finally hit the market was a stripped-down version of the old, stripped-down Renault 12. "Perfect for the idiots," Ceausescu approved. Indeed, the Romanian people, who had never before had any car, came to cherish the Dacia.
For the Western market, however, the Dacia was a nightmare. To the best of my knowledge, no Dacia car was ever sold in the U.S.
Ceausescu, undaunted, was determined to see Romanian cars running around in every country in the world. He tasked me to buy another Western license, this time to produce a car tailored for export. Oltcit was the name of the new car -- an amalgam made from the words Oltenia, Ceausescu's native province, and the French car maker Citroen, which owned 49% of the shares. Oltcit was projected to produce between 90,000 and 150,000 compact cars designed by Citroen.
Ceausescu micromanaged Oltcit, but he didn't even know how to drive a car, much less run a car industry. To save the foreign currency he coveted, he decreed that the components for the Oltcit were to be manufactured at 166 existing Romanian factories. Coordinating 166 plants to have them deliver all the parts on time would be a monumental job even for an experienced car producer. It proved impossible for the Romanian bureaucracy, which pretended to work and was paid accordingly. The Oltcit factory could produce only 1% to 1.5% of its intended capacity owing to the lack of the parts that those 166 companies were supposed to furnish simultaneously. The Oltcit project lost billions.
Ceausescu was an extreme case, but automobile manufacturing and government were never a good mix in any socialist/communist country. In the late 1950s, when I headed Romania's foreign intelligence station in West Germany, I worked closely with the foreign branch of the East German Stasi. Its chief, Markus Wolf, rewarded me with a Trabant car -- the pride of East Germany -- when I left to return to Romania.
That ugly little car became famous in 1989 when thousands of East Germans used it to cross to the West. The Trabant originally derived from a well regarded West German car (the DKW) made by Audi, which today produces some of the most prestigious cars in the world. In the hands of the East German government, the unfortunate DKW became a farce of a car. The bureaucrats and the union that ran the Trabant factory made the car smaller and boxier, to give it a more proletarian look. To reduce production costs, they cut down on the size of the original, already small DKW engine, and they replaced the metal body with one made of plastic-covered cardboard. What rolled off the assembly line was a kind of horseless carriage that roared like a lawn mower and polluted the air worse than a whole city block full of big Western cars.
After German reunification, the plucky little "Trabi" that East Germans used to wait 10 years to buy became an embarrassment, and its production was stopped. Germany's junkyards are now piled high with Trabants, which cannot be recycled because burning their plastic-covered cardboard bodies would release poisonous dioxins. German scientists are now trying to develop a bacterium to devour the cardboard-and-plastic body.
Automobile manufacturing and government do not mix in capitalist countries either. In the spring of 1978 Ceausescu appointed me chief of his Presidential House, a new position supposed to be similar to that of the White House chief of staff. To go with it he gave me a big Jaguar car. That Jaguar, which at the time had been produced in a government-run British factory, was so bad that it spent more time in the garage being repaired than it did on the road.
"Apart from some Russian factories in Gorky, Jaguars were the worst," Ford executive Bill Hayden stated when Ford bought the nationalized British car maker in 1988. How did the famous Jaguar, one of the most prestigious cars in the world, become a joke?
In 1945, the British voters, tired of four years of war, kicked out Winston Churchill and elected a leftist parliament led by Labour's Clement Attlee. Attlee nationalized the automobile, trucking and coal industries, as well as communication facilities, civil aviation, electricity and steel. Britain was already saddled by crushing war debts. Now it was sapped of economic vigor. The old empire quickly passed into history. It would take decades until Margaret Thatcher's privatization reforms restored Britain's place among the world's top-tier economies.
The United States is far more powerful than Great Britain was then, and no American Attlee should be capable of destroying its solid economic and political base. I hope that the U.S. administration, Congress and the American voters will take a closer look at history and prevent our automotive industry from following down the Dacia, Oltcit or Jaguar path.
Lt. Gen. Pacepa, the highest ranking Soviet bloc official granted political asylum in the U.S., is the author of the memoir "Red Horizons" (Regnery, 1987).
Just for fun...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz9q3uPmeGw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1Fj_8fMcE4&NR=1
The only thing I'll add is that 80b is a pile 'o cash. Considering the "new GM's" anticipated market share, they will be hard pressed to pay that back.
Best regards,
Frank C
Interesting reading
From yesterday's WSJ"
What I Learned as a Car Czar
History shows government and automobile manufacturing don't mix.
By ION MIHAI PACEPA
They say history repeats itself. If you are like me and have lived two lives, you have a good chance of seeing the re-enactment with your own eyes. The current takeover of General Motors by the U.S. government and United Auto Workers makes me think back to Romania's catastrophic mismanagement of the car factories it built jointly with the French companies Renault and Citroen. I was Romania's car czar.
When the Romanian dictator Nicolae Ceausescu decided in the mid-1960s that he wanted to have a car industry, he chose me to start the project rolling. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. I knew nothing about manufacturing cars, but neither did anyone else among Ceausescu's top men. However, my father had spent most of his life running the service department of the General Motors affiliate in Bucharest.
My job at the time was as head of the Romanian industrial espionage program. Ceausescu tasked me to mediate the purchase of a minimum, basic license for a small car from a major Western manufacturer, and then to steal everything else needed to produce the car.
Three Western companies competed for the honor. Ceausescu decided on Renault, because it was owned by the French government (all Soviet bloc rulers distrusted private companies). We ended up with a license for an antiquated and about-to-be-discontinued Renault-12 car, because it was the cheapest. "Good enough for the idiots," Ceausescu decided, showing what he thought of the Romanian people. He baptized the car Dacia, to commemorate Romania's 2,000-year history going back to Dacia Felix, as the ancient Romans called that part of the world. In that government-run economy, symbolism was the most important consideration, especially when it came to things in short supply (such as food).
"Too luxurious for the idiots," Ceausescu decreed when he saw the first Dacia car made in Romania. Immediately, the radio, right side mirror and backseat heating were dropped. Other "unnecessary luxuries" were soon eliminated by the bureaucrats and their workers' union that were running the factory. The car that finally hit the market was a stripped-down version of the old, stripped-down Renault 12. "Perfect for the idiots," Ceausescu approved. Indeed, the Romanian people, who had never before had any car, came to cherish the Dacia.
For the Western market, however, the Dacia was a nightmare. To the best of my knowledge, no Dacia car was ever sold in the U.S.
Ceausescu, undaunted, was determined to see Romanian cars running around in every country in the world. He tasked me to buy another Western license, this time to produce a car tailored for export. Oltcit was the name of the new car -- an amalgam made from the words Oltenia, Ceausescu's native province, and the French car maker Citroen, which owned 49% of the shares. Oltcit was projected to produce between 90,000 and 150,000 compact cars designed by Citroen.
Ceausescu micromanaged Oltcit, but he didn't even know how to drive a car, much less run a car industry. To save the foreign currency he coveted, he decreed that the components for the Oltcit were to be manufactured at 166 existing Romanian factories. Coordinating 166 plants to have them deliver all the parts on time would be a monumental job even for an experienced car producer. It proved impossible for the Romanian bureaucracy, which pretended to work and was paid accordingly. The Oltcit factory could produce only 1% to 1.5% of its intended capacity owing to the lack of the parts that those 166 companies were supposed to furnish simultaneously. The Oltcit project lost billions.
Ceausescu was an extreme case, but automobile manufacturing and government were never a good mix in any socialist/communist country. In the late 1950s, when I headed Romania's foreign intelligence station in West Germany, I worked closely with the foreign branch of the East German Stasi. Its chief, Markus Wolf, rewarded me with a Trabant car -- the pride of East Germany -- when I left to return to Romania.
That ugly little car became famous in 1989 when thousands of East Germans used it to cross to the West. The Trabant originally derived from a well regarded West German car (the DKW) made by Audi, which today produces some of the most prestigious cars in the world. In the hands of the East German government, the unfortunate DKW became a farce of a car. The bureaucrats and the union that ran the Trabant factory made the car smaller and boxier, to give it a more proletarian look. To reduce production costs, they cut down on the size of the original, already small DKW engine, and they replaced the metal body with one made of plastic-covered cardboard. What rolled off the assembly line was a kind of horseless carriage that roared like a lawn mower and polluted the air worse than a whole city block full of big Western cars.
After German reunification, the plucky little "Trabi" that East Germans used to wait 10 years to buy became an embarrassment, and its production was stopped. Germany's junkyards are now piled high with Trabants, which cannot be recycled because burning their plastic-covered cardboard bodies would release poisonous dioxins. German scientists are now trying to develop a bacterium to devour the cardboard-and-plastic body.
Automobile manufacturing and government do not mix in capitalist countries either. In the spring of 1978 Ceausescu appointed me chief of his Presidential House, a new position supposed to be similar to that of the White House chief of staff. To go with it he gave me a big Jaguar car. That Jaguar, which at the time had been produced in a government-run British factory, was so bad that it spent more time in the garage being repaired than it did on the road.
"Apart from some Russian factories in Gorky, Jaguars were the worst," Ford executive Bill Hayden stated when Ford bought the nationalized British car maker in 1988. How did the famous Jaguar, one of the most prestigious cars in the world, become a joke?
In 1945, the British voters, tired of four years of war, kicked out Winston Churchill and elected a leftist parliament led by Labour's Clement Attlee. Attlee nationalized the automobile, trucking and coal industries, as well as communication facilities, civil aviation, electricity and steel. Britain was already saddled by crushing war debts. Now it was sapped of economic vigor. The old empire quickly passed into history. It would take decades until Margaret Thatcher's privatization reforms restored Britain's place among the world's top-tier economies.
The United States is far more powerful than Great Britain was then, and no American Attlee should be capable of destroying its solid economic and political base. I hope that the U.S. administration, Congress and the American voters will take a closer look at history and prevent our automotive industry from following down the Dacia, Oltcit or Jaguar path.
Lt. Gen. Pacepa, the highest ranking Soviet bloc official granted political asylum in the U.S., is the author of the memoir "Red Horizons" (Regnery, 1987).
Just for fun...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz9q3uPmeGw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1Fj_8fMcE4&NR=1
I have a problem with loosing business in Boston because certain buildings are union only, their attitude is if your not union you don’t deserve to make a living, in most cases I just higher a union sub, add a few points on top of the bill, so the customer is paying close to double what they would if they were in the building next door.
DPVANDY01
Sorry to disagree with you.
BUT.... Not sure how your work schedule is out on the East Coast, but here in the Midwest, with the Firefighters 24 on 48 off. They are my worst enemy when it comes to construction workers.
My father had a painting business and had to compete with what we called the 'station-wagon painters' for years. Most were firefighter/firemen and school teachers who did this as a 'side job'. My father's was a full time business supporting 8 children. Sorry to say he died at the ripe old age of 41 from a stress related heart attack.
I spent 15 years butting heads with under, if, insured teachers and firefighters during the summer trying to make a living.
Stay with your profession, stay with your union, which you support, and stay out of my business.
Again just my $0.02 worth.
Dan
Sorry to disagree with you.
BUT.... Not sure how your work schedule is out on the East Coast, but here in the Midwest, with the Firefighters 24 on 48 off. They are my worst enemy when it comes to construction workers.
My father had a painting business and had to compete with what we called the 'station-wagon painters' for years. Most were firefighter/firemen and school teachers who did this as a 'side job'. My father's was a full time business supporting 8 children. Sorry to say he died at the ripe old age of 41 from a stress related heart attack.
I spent 15 years butting heads with under, if, insured teachers and firefighters during the summer trying to make a living.
Stay with your profession, stay with your union, which you support, and stay out of my business.
Again just my $0.02 worth.
Dan
Geography lesson....... Cincinnati is the heart of the MIDWEST and we do work 24/48 and I have never injected myself into your business... what the phuck dude? I make quite a good living as a lowly union employee so keep your $0.02 and I'll keep showing up for your loved ones when the have heart attacks.....
You should all be watching CNBC right now... they are airing a documentary and discussing how McDonalds should be regulated by the government because they serve big servings and fatty food...
They called Ronald McDonald "insidious" and "manipulative"
Let's pass some laws... put the bastards out of business.... who needs their $1B+ marketing dollars in the economy... screw em...
They called Ronald McDonald "insidious" and "manipulative"
Let's pass some laws... put the bastards out of business.... who needs their $1B+ marketing dollars in the economy... screw em...
Gary
Only you, and only you can 'Lighten things up!'
Where is the book??
Was it printed by a Union Shop?
Stamp and all??
Dan
Only you, and only you can 'Lighten things up!'
Where is the book??
Was it printed by a Union Shop?
Stamp and all??
Dan
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